What's the ruling.....

[Rastnav]

The rocks in your examples are not playing surfaces. You'd play each of those as if they were a small bush.

If your disc were near the front of #2 and you wanted to jump up on the rock, I would expect your card mates to accept that, however if you said you wanted to mark behind the rock on the LOP, I would also expect the card to accept that as the lie.

Where are you getting that rocks aren't part of the playing surface? We take stances on rocks all of the time. You can place a supporting point on the rock, it can support you.

802.05 Lie:

A … The playing surface is a surface, generally the ground, which is capable of supporting the player and from which a stance can reasonably be taken. …

802.07 Stance:

If the lie has been marked by a marker disc, then when the disc is released, the player must:
1. Have at least one supporting point that is in contact with the lie; and,
2. Have no supporting point closer to the target than the rear edge of the marker disc; and,
3. Have all supporting points in-bounds.

 

[txmxer]

Where are you getting that rocks aren't part of the playing surface? We take stances on rocks all of the time. You can place a supporting point on the rock, it can support you.

802.05 Lie:


802.07 Stance:

So, you are saying that in sanctioned play in your examples, you would object to a player moving back along the LOP behind the rocks to place a mini and then throw from behind the mini?

 

[Rastnav]

So, you are saying that in sanctioned play in your examples, you would object to a player moving back along the LOP behind the rocks to place a mini and then throw from behind the mini?

In those two examples, I would say that the correct ruling is that they can either take their stance with a supporting point behind the disc, or mark in front of the disc and place a supporting point in that lie, and that either is acceptable.

If you are referencing 803.02 B, which allows relief from solid obstacles, by marking back at the nearest point on LOP, this is only allowed "If a large solid obstacle prevents the player from taking a legal stance behind the marker disc, or from marking a disc above or below the playing surface". As the rocks don't prevent you from taking a stance, they don't grant relief under that rule.

In a hypothetical instance where the disc landed on top of a rock where it was not reasonable to try to take a stance, for instance a much taller, 6 foot, version of the rock in example 1, marking below the disc backward on the LOP would seem to be correct as it is similar to the answer to the question specified in QA-MAR-3. This seems to be an application of 803.02 B (allowing relief from solid obstacles) combined with 805.01 C, which addresses disc coming to rest above the playing surface, and 802.05 A which establishes that only areas where a player can reasonably take a stance are part of the playing surface.

I grant that "reasonable" is potentially ill-defined, but I don't think it fails to describe either of those example pictures.

QA-MAR-3: My disc is stuck in a tree, directly above the trunk. How do I mark it?
If there is room to mark your disc directly below it, that is what you do. If not, you mark at the first available spot back along the line of play.

 

[txmxer]

In those two examples, I would say that the correct ruling is that they can either take their stance with a supporting point behind the disc, or mark in front of the disc and place a supporting point in that lie, and that either is acceptable.

If you are referencing 803.02 B, which allows relief from solid obstacles, by marking back at the nearest point on LOP, this is only allowed "If a large solid obstacle prevents the player from taking a legal stance behind the marker disc, or from marking a disc above or below the playing surface". As the rocks don't prevent you from taking a stance, they don't grant relief under that rule.

In a hypothetical instance where the disc landed on top of a rock where it was not reasonable to try to take a stance, for instance a much taller, 6 foot, version of the rock in example 1, marking below the disc backward on the LOP would seem to be correct as it is similar to the answer to the question specified in QA-MAR-3. This seems to be an application of 803.02 B (allowing relief from solid obstacles) combined with 805.01 C, which addresses disc coming to rest above the playing surface, and 802.05 A which establishes that only areas where a player can reasonably take a stance are part of the playing surface.

I grant that "reasonable" is potentially ill-defined, but I don't think it fails to describe either of those example pictures.

You didn't really answer my question. You are in a tournament and either of these situations occur to a cardmate. They want to place their mini behind the rock on the LOP. What is YOUR call?

 

[Rastnav]

You didn't really answer my question. You are in a tournament and either of these situations occur to a cardmate. They want to place their mini behind the rock on the LOP. What is YOUR call?

Oh good lord, are we really doing that? That's an entirely separate conversation (what are the actual rules vs. how people actually play vs. when are rules violations actually called.)

But, if we must, in a tournament if I was asked by cardmate where they should play from, I'd answer what I believed. If they insist that they believe they are supposed to mark behind on the LOP, I would encourage them to play a provisional. If they start being a jerk about it and insisting that they have the right to relief, I may call them on it, as later on they may be insisting on the right to violate a rule that will actually be consequential. It would also depend on my reading of my cardmates. But given that I'll be telling them that they have no need to mark and can just play from immediately behind the disc, they'll likely just go "Oh, I can play from right here and have no need to mark it?" they'll likely not raise a fuss unless they are really concerned about misplaying, in which case they'll play a provisional.

If they try and mark back on the LOP to "some place that's flat" because they think they can mark wherever they want back on the LOP (rather than first available) I'm definitely raising the point.

If they are a 9 year old playing in their first tournament and they take a stance out to the side of the disc because it's more comfortable because the disc is up against a log or forget to actually mark their lie when they tap in, I'll just gently tell them afterward that they should remember to mark their disc and play from behind their marker because someone might actually call them on it in some tournament down the line. (Which is something I've actually done).

 

[txmxer]

Oh good lord, are we really doing that? That's an entirely separate conversation (what are the actual rules vs. how people actually play vs. when are rules violations actually called.)
).

Yes, you ARE doing that.