Black Ace - Wrong target rule?

[barwil]

Hello,
I had a discussion recently during a tournament (not sanctioned, so kind of theoretical) about the "black ace" rules. The main question is whether the rule 811.F.2: "Wrong target" applies to black aces or not (and consequently, if you should get a penalty stroke for a black ace)

Specifically, As I understand it, the 811.F.2 applies if the black ace is to a basket that is otherwise in play in the round, and does not apply if the basket is "not in play" and marked with a trashbag or smth.

That would be consistent with how it was played in Maricopa Open 2022 when Luke Samson had a black Ace ( see here for a clip https://youtube.com/clip/Ugkx2WaDxQfsJA0iiaDN52II-NBfn3hgsKS2 )

However, the other interpretation is that according to the rule 807.A Luke's play was finished to a wrong target and he should be additionally penalized according to 811.f.2.

Is there an official interpretation somewhere?

thanks in advance for any responses

 

[Cgkdisc]

Hello,
I had a discussion recently during a tournament (not sanctioned, so kind of theoretical) about the "black ace" rules. The main question is whether the rule 811.F.2: "Wrong target" applies to black aces or not (and consequently, if you should get a penalty stroke for a black ace)

Specifically, As I understand it, the 811.F.2 applies if the black ace is to a basket that is otherwise in play in the round, and does not apply if the basket is "not in play" and marked with a trashbag or smth.

That would be consistent with how it was played in Maricopa Open 2022 when Luke Samson had a black Ace ( see here for a clip https://youtube.com/clip/Ugkx2WaDxQfsJA0iiaDN52II-NBfn3hgsKS2 )

However, the other interpretation is that according to the rule 807.A Luke's play was finished to a wrong target and he should be additionally penalized according to 811.f.2.

Is there an official interpretation somewhere?

thanks in advance for any responses

A Black Ace is simply a throw that lands in a wrong basket for your hole. Pretend you've landed in a "metal bush", mark your lie on the ground under it and play your second throw from there (presuming you're still inbounds). 811.F.2 indicates what penalty applies only if you stop play on your hole thinking you scored a real ace and have started play on the next hole. Note that landing in the wrong basket on holes with two baskets is called a grey ace and is still played like a metal bush.

 

[Steve West]

What do you see in 811.F.2 that would distinguish between in-play vs. not-in-play baskets?

 

[barwil]

What do you see in 811.F.2 that would distinguish between in-play vs. not-in-play baskets?

I would think that a basket that is marked with a trash bag is not a "target" for the consideration of the round, and just a "metal bush" as Cgkdisc has described it.

 

[BillFleming]

See the quote below, this is the most important part of the Wrong Target rule:

Wrong Target. The player has completed play on a target that is not the correct target for the hole being played.

So, if the player's disc lands in the wrong basket, regardless of if it is marked/bagged/etc, AND calls that hole completed; they played the wrong target and are penalized. BUT, if the player's disc lands in the wrong basket, they mark below the disc, and throw to the correct basket, there isn't any penalty.

It doesn't matter if the wrong target is a second basket on the hole they are playing or a basket for another hole....as long as they continue playing to the correct basket they are good. It is only when the player stops playing that hole after their disc is in the wrong basket that it is a rules violation.

 

[barwil]

BUT, if the player's disc lands in the wrong basket, they mark below the disc, and throw to the correct basket, there isn't any penalty.

It doesn't matter if the wrong target is a second basket on the hole they are playing or a basket for another hole....as long as they continue playing to the correct basket they are good. It is only when the player stops playing that hole after their disc is in the wrong basket that it is a rules violation.

OK. That clears it for me. I guess I was mislead by the fact that this rule is in "misplay" section, and all other misplays carry a penalty. But you are right: the "wrong target" seems to be classified as a "misplay" without a penalty (unless the player mistakenly finishes the whole on the wrong target) regardless of whether the basket is "in play" or not.

thanks

 

[BillFleming]

OK. That clears it for me. I guess I was mislead by the fact that this rule is in "misplay" section, and all other misplays carry a penalty. But you are right: the "wrong target" seems to be classified as a "misplay" without a penalty (unless the player mistakenly finishes the whole on the wrong target) regardless of whether the basket is "in play" or not.

thanks

The reason I knew about this rule and how to apply it, is that I almost got burned by a mistake. I was playing a sanctioned league, where the rule was....if there were two baskets, play to the long position. I goofed, out of habit on one hole I threw to the short position and parked the basket, I got to my disc and putted it into the basket....BUT before I took the disc out, my cardmates yelled "wrong basket". I checked with them, they set me straight, I then marked my lie under the basket and threw to the correct one. There was no penalty because I had not 'completed' the hole...I was about to, but my cardmates stopped me (thank goodness). I had still thought I misplayed it, but the rule requires 'completion' of the hole and since I hadn't taken my disc out of the basket yet, I was able to mark the lie and continue to the correct basket where I completed the hole. Might be a technicality, but the rule wording saved me.

 

[Steve West]

... since I hadn't taken my disc out of the basket yet, ...

The rule is even more forgiving than you think. You have until you make the next throw (which would be teeing off on the next hole) to go back and fix your mistake.

If you had pulled your disc out of the basket, 810 would apply:

810 Interference
A. If a thrown disc has moved after having come to rest on the in-bounds playing surface, it is replaced to where it first came to rest, as agreed on by the group. A thrown disc that has come to rest elsewhere does not need to be replaced, and its position is based on where it first came to rest, as agreed on by the group.

Which says put it back and play on.

[Bold because that's what happened here.]

Because it was in the target, you don't even need to put it back, just play the position where it was. In this case (assuming the wrong basket was in-bounds, on the good side of a mando, you didn't want to re-throw, or take optional relief, yada yada yada) you'd place a mini on the playing surface in front of under where the disc was.