2 meter rule application

[Thumber]

I played in a tournament this weekend past where the TD rules the 2 meter rule in play

On Hole 8 one of the guys on my card drove and was 50 feet up in a spruce. It was obvious it had stopped (come to rest) because we could see it from the teepad

When we finally got up to where he was his disc had fallen. I said it was still a penalty because the disc had come to rest and the whole card saw it up in the tree. My card ruled against me.

I asked the TD when I ran into him. He ruled against me.

I believe both the TD and my card were wrong. It didn't matter in the standings and I didn't make a big deal of it but I thought I would ask here.

806.01 Two-meter Rule

A. If a disc has come to rest above two meters, as measured from the lowest point of the disc to the playing surface directly below it, the player shall be assessed a one-throw penalty. The player shall then proceed in accordance with 802.02.C.

B. If the lie directly below the disc on the playing surface is out-of-bounds, the disc is played as out-of-bounds regardless of its height above the playing surface.

C. A disc supported by the target is not subject to the two-meter rule.

D. If the thrower moves the disc before a determination has been made, the disc is considered to have come to rest above two meters.

E. The Director may declare the two-meter rule to be in effect for the entire course, for particular holes, and/or for individual objects.

802.02 Establishing Position

A. The thrown disc establishes a position where it first comes to rest.

B. A disc is considered to be at rest once it is no longer moving as a result of the momentum imparted by the throw. A disc in water or foliage is considered to be at rest once it is moving only as a result of movement of the water, the foliage, or the wind.

C. If the disc first comes to rest above or below the playing surface, its position is on the playing surface directly below or above the disc.

D. If the thrown disc breaks into pieces, the largest piece is deemed to be the thrown disc.

E. If the thrown disc has moved after it first came to rest on the in-bounds playing surface, it shall be replaced to its approximate position. If it first came to rest elsewhere, the disc need not be replaced, and any determinations are made relative to where it first came to rest

QA 8: Disc Knocked out of Tree
Q:
My disc was stuck in a tree well above two meters (with the two-meter rule in effect), when another player's throw knocked it to the ground. Where is my lie, and am I subject to a two-meter penalty throw?

A:
The disc is played relative to where it first came to rest. Since that was clearly above two meters, you are subject to a penalty throw just as if the disc had stayed in the tree. As for the player whose throw knocked your disc down, the interference rule does not apply to a competitively thrown disc. Applicable Rules: 804.03 Interference; 802.02 Establishing Position; 806.01 Two-meter Rule.

It was an interesting situation and reinforced my dislike of the 2 meter rule

 

[dx_roc]

it should have been a penalty. it's very clear in the rules.

 

[bradharris]

Rules QA 8:

Q My disc was stuck in a tree well above two meters (with the two-meter rule in effect), when another player's throw knocked it to the ground. Where is my lie, and am I subject to a two-meter penalty throw?

A The disc is played relative to where it first came to rest. Since that was clearly above two meters, you are subject to a penalty throw just as if the disc had stayed in the tree. As for the player whose throw knocked your disc down, the interference rule does not apply to a competitively thrown disc.

So I think you were correct. The fact that it was clearly over 2 meters when it came to rest, the penalty should have applied.

 

[Discette]

The rule for discs above the playing surface changed with the new rule book.

The situation described by the OP was specifically covered by 803.08 D in the last version of the rules.

803.08D. No penalty shall be incurred if the disc falls, unassisted by a player or spectator, to a position less than two meters above the playing surface before the thrower arrives at the disc. The thrower may not delay in order to allow the position of the disc to improve.

New Rule book states:

802.02B A disc is considered to be at rest once it is no longer moving as a result of the momentum imparted by the throw. A disc in....foliage is considered to be at rest once it is moving only as a result of the....foliage or the wind.

802.02C If the disc FIRST comes to rest above...the playing surface, its position is on the playing surface directly below...the disc.

According to the new rules, if the disc was over two meters when it originally came to rest, the player would have to take the 2M penalty stroke and mark the lie on the playing surface directly below the disc.


However......was everyone absolutely positive the disc they could see off the tee 50 feet up in the tree was actually this player's disc? Could it have been another disc of the same color that everyone just happened to see after the throw? I may have to give the benefit of the doubt to the player because in my experience Spruce trees don't generally give up discs without a good fight.:\

 

[Thumber]

However......was everyone absolutely positive the disc they could see off the tee 50 feet up in the tree was actually this player's disc? Could it have been another disc of the same color that everyone just happened to see after the throw? I may have to give the benefit of the doubt to the player because in my experience Spruce trees don't generally give up discs without a good fight.:\

We watched the flight all the way from his hand to it stopping 50 feet off the ground. Zero doubt.

I had just changed bags for this tourny and hadn't moved my rule book over from my Mahal to the Prodiscus bag. That was my mistake

 

[DG_player]

Trying to determine when a disc is at rest from a distance, is ripe for argument. Who's to say that the disc in the tree was still not moving imperceptibly and then finally broke loose?

This is another case where disc golf should look at the ball golf rules. They've dealt with these types of issues for years and tweaked the rules to eliminate as many judgement calls as possible. In ball golf, a ball is not at rest until you address it, or in the case of the green, mark it. I don't see a good reason why disc golf wouldn't use the same fundamental method, once you get to your disc and mark it, it's at rest.

 

[Thumber]

I agree that any tweaks that help remove judgment calls improves the application of the rules. But the rules do cover at rest. It stopped in the tree. At that point only wind and gravity are imparting motion.

But imagine if you threw on to a sloped roof that is declared OB. The discs slides up the roof and hits a flashing. Then slides back down the roof. Technically, all momentum imparted by the throw ceased when it hit the flashing. Would someone be called OB in this case? According to the rules they are most definitely OB.

But what about if the disc hits the flashing at an angle? Some of the momentum is lost but not all.

 

[bradharris]

Trying to determine when a disc is at rest from a distance, is ripe for argument. Who's to say that the disc in the tree was still not moving imperceptibly and then finally broke loose?

802.02 B

A disc is considered to be at rest once it is no longer moving as a result of the momentum imparted by the throw.

Once it is "caught" by the tree, it's momentum is stopped and it is at rest. There's not much room for argument here.

 

[bradharris]

I agree that any tweaks that help remove judgment calls improves the application of the rules. But the rules do cover at rest. It stopped in the tree. At that point only wind and gravity are imparting motion.

But imagine if you threw on to a sloped roof that is declared OB. The discs slides up the roof and hits a flashing. Then slides back down the roof. Technically, all momentum imparted by the throw ceased when it hit the flashing. Would someone be called OB in this case? According to the rules they are most definitely OB.

But what about if the disc hits the flashing at an angle? Some of the momentum is lost but not all.

It doesn't have to be forward momentum. A ricochet is still momentum from the throw. Otherwise, you could argue "forward progress" if you hit a tree and kick backwards.

 

[DG_player]

802.02 B



Once it is "caught" by the tree, it's momentum is stopped and it is at rest. There's not much room for argument here.

The fact that the disc moved, after being caught by the tree, quite clearly casts some serious doubt on whether or not it was ever "at rest". I've seen this happen on a number of occasions in ball golf, where a ball rolls long after it appears to be at rest. Was it at rest and did a light breeze move it, or was it still settling into the grass and finally broke loose to roll? Does it really even matter?

In ball golf it doesn't, because the USGA is smart enough to know that anytime you have a judgement call that affects the outcome of a match, there's a good chance the parties are not going to agree. (Not that it's even feasible for either of them to know the true cause of the movement in many cases).

Why wouldn't the PDGA follow suit and just say when you get to your disc and mark it, it's at rest. That leaves zero room for argument.

 

[Thumber]

The fact that the disc moved, after being caught by the tree, quite clearly casts some serious doubt on whether or not it was ever "at rest".

802.02B A disc is considered to be at rest once it is no longer moving as a result of the momentum imparted by the throw. A disc in....foliage is considered to be at rest once it is moving only as a result of the....foliage or the wind.

The guys whose disc was in the tree teed first. It was still there when the last guy teed off. I would say any momentum imparted by the throw was fully dissipated by that point.

But I do get your point and think the rules could be tweaked to better address the situation

 

[bradharris]

The fact that the disc moved, after being caught by the tree, quite clearly casts some serious doubt on whether or not it was ever "at rest". I've seen this happen on a number of occasions in ball golf, where a ball rolls long after it appears to be at rest. Was it at rest and did a light breeze move it, or was it still settling into the grass and finally broke loose to roll? Does it really even matter?

In ball golf it doesn't, because the USGA is smart enough to know that anytime you have a judgement call that affects the outcome of a match, there's a good chance the parties are not going to agree. (Not that it's even feasible for either of them to know the true cause of the movement in many cases).

Why wouldn't the PDGA follow suit and just say when you get to your disc and mark it, it's at rest. That leaves zero room for argument.

One of the primary applications of this rule is in water. A disc can float and be moved by the current of water. So if you follow the USGA style, a player could argue that their disc is still not at rest while waiting for it to slowly drift to shore.

This is one of those rules that's easy to argue the wording, but in practical application is pretty cut-and-dry. Once it stops moving and is sitting in the tree, it's at rest. Any subsequent movement is likely caused by outside forces rather than some sort of tiny movement leftover from the throw.

 

[DG_player]

Although it appears that the PDGA has clarified this rule as it relates to the 2 meter rule (probably because of the whole judgement problem), similar situations can come up elsewhere.

Earlier in the summer, I had a disc come to rest precariously on top of the basket. In the time it took me to bag my marker and walk halfway to the basket to hole out, the disc dropped down and fell into the basket. Fortunately it was a casual round, but had this been a tournament, I could easily see it turning into a long drawn out argument on whether the disc was "at rest" or not.

All in all, I'm just for the rules eliminating judgement calls where possible. Anytime you are in a tournament situation, judgement calls are likely going to be biased depending on who benefits (even in casual if there is money or ego on the line).

 

[bradharris]

Although it appears that the PDGA has clarified this rule as it relates to the 2 meter rule (probably because of the whole judgement problem), similar situations can come up elsewhere.

Earlier in the summer, I had a disc come to rest precariously on top of the basket. In the time it took me to bag my marker and walk halfway to the basket to hole out, the disc dropped down and fell into the basket. Fortunately it was a casual round, but had this been a tournament, I could easily see it turning into a long drawn out argument on whether the disc was "at rest" or not.

All in all, I'm just for the rules eliminating judgement calls where possible. Anytime you are in a tournament situation, judgement calls are likely going to be biased depending on who benefits (even in casual if there is money or ego on the line).

I don't think taking judgement out of the rule makes it any better in this case. Judgement calls are a part of all sports. The problem here is simply that we don't have unbiased officials to make those calls. So the players themselves have to make judgement calls with obvious bias.

 

[BogeyNoMore]

The rule seems pretty clear to me - stroke him.

That said, while I appreciate what DG-Player brought up about the PGA's rule, Mr. Harris brings up a valid point that doesn't seem applicable to ball golf.

The question becomes what criteria should be used to determine when it comes to rest? I suppose as Thumber mentioned, it's when the the players on the card can observe that the disc has lost all it's momentum. One might benefit from the fact that if it carries in to dense trees, it might come to a stop, even though no one can actually observe that it has, but when you reach the tree, it's on the ground, so there's no way to assume it lsot all it's momentum and didn't come down immediately (kind like the wedgie rule on a blind hole).

If the disc comes down by the time you reach your lie, maybe you should just be happy you didn't lose it or have to fart around trying to get it down during a tourney.

 

[dusty5150]

I solved this problem in all of the events I TD ... no 2m rule. Stop using it people.

 

[mashnut]

I solved this problem in all of the events I TD ... no 2m rule. Stop using it people.

I don't like blanket applications of the 2m rule, but when there are specific holes or trees where it makes sense I'm all for it. There are some shots where without the 2m rule, the best shot is to go over everything avoiding the fairway and hope that the big cedar near the basket catches your disc for an easy 2. With the 2m rule in place you have a risk/reward decision on that shot.

 

[dusty5150]

I don't like blanket applications of the 2m rule, but when there are specific holes or trees where it makes sense I'm all for it. There are some shots where without the 2m rule, the best shot is to go over everything avoiding the fairway and hope that the big cedar near the basket catches your disc for an easy 2. With the 2m rule in place you have a risk/reward decision on that shot.

yup, i totally agree; luckily my local courses don't really have any of that i was pretty happy as a TD when they made it a discretionary rule.

 

[Thumber]

yup, i totally agree; luckily my local courses don't really have any of that i was pretty happy as a TD when they made it a discretionary rule.

The collective groan was audible when 2m rule in effect was announced at the tournament

 

[dusty5150]

The collective groan was audible when 2m rule in effect was announced at the tournament

TIML? if so, so not needed there :|