Casual Relief/Barbed Wire Relief

[araytx]

The entirety of this situation is going to boil down to, "in what scenarios do the 2 meters for relief from barbed wire apply? it is a real situation from this past Saturday.

(see attached photos -- I don't have a url to embed them from)

Playing Heritage Park in Flower Mound , hole #14. As you can see from the map, hole 14 is a semi-wooded, short, hook hyzer, and a very frustrating one because you feel it's a must birdie, but even for those throwing over the top, there is an incline (that you don't see) about 5-7 feet past the basket such that anything just the tiny bit too hot is going to roll away to outside C1. And the pic was taken in winter time, so it is much more green, luscious, and grown-in tighter as the hole goes along than the pic implies. Whichever route option you take is a careful one.

The Player who threw first came to his disc (indigo blue) and he is about 4-5 feet in the brush, abut 38-40 feet from the basket. As he comes to his lie he finds the remnants of an old barbed wire fence (red), about 3-4 feet high. Straddling left or right and he is absolutely blocked by woods, but if he stays straight on with a traditional staggered stance the barbed wire is actually right on him and interfering with some very sensitive, shall we say, parts of the body, BUT he has a tiny spot of less brush where he might be able to power a putt through. The barbed wire makes all thoughts of a jump or step putt leave his mind.

Since the TD gave the standard "there is a 2 meters of relief allowed for barbed wire" in the player meeting and/or rules sheet, this is where our discussion began. With 2 meters of relief to the left (orange) he is absolutely clear of the woods and has a clean look; 2 meters to the right (orange) and he is on the edge, but the woods are still thick in front of him to the basket. And EVERYTHING I've pointed out above is inbounds.

So I am adding a poll to see how it goes? Do you think it is a) 2 meters relief from the barbed wire (for player safety) in any direction, b) 2 meters of relief from the barbed wire (for player safety) only perpendicular left or right (orange); c) only "free" relief is away from the basket on the line of play until he is first clear of the barbed wire (like casual relief); d) no relief for "free;" only penalty-assessed options available.

 

[dmoore1998]

Well, if I look at this from the rule book:

A player may obtain relief from the following obstacles that are on or behind the lie: harmful insects or animals, people, or any item as designated by the Director. To obtain relief, the player may mark a new lie that is on the line of play, farther from the target, at the nearest point that provides relief (unless greater relief is announced by the Director).

The last option of no free relief seems incorrect immediately, since the TD specifically announced there WAS relief for barbed wire. He needs to mark a new lie on the line of play, so perpendicular also seems out of the question. And it needs to be farther from the target. Seems like option 3 is the winner by a mile. I'm curious to hear anyone's else's logic though.

 

[txmxer]

Start with LOP (802.05)

The line of play is the imaginary line on the playing surface extending from the center of
the target through and beyond the center of the marker disc.

According to the diagram, the barb wire is running parallel to the LOP? In order to get relief from such a fence line, you would need to move perpendicular from the line. Moving along the LOP does not provide relief in this case.

It appears to me that one would take relief perpendicular to the fence (up to 2m), then establish a new LOP from that point.

 

[txmxer]

Per the QA, seems like it would have been reasonable to get clarification from the TD:

QA-OBS-9
A player taking relief from obstacles or
from a Casual Area can move back along
the line of play to the frst available lie.
What is the "greater relief" that the
Director can announce?


Greater relief could be a drop zone,
a re-throw, or the ability to move the lie.
Relief (moving the lie without penalty)
is granted for situations that are out of
the ordinary, so the Director has a lot
of leeway to deal with exceptional
situations.

 

[dmoore1998]

Start with LOP (802.05)

The line of play is the imaginary line on the playing surface extending from the center of
the target through and beyond the center of the marker disc.

According to the diagram, the barb wire is running parallel to the LOP? In order to get relief from such a fence line, you would need to move perpendicular from the line. Moving along the LOP does not provide relief in this case.

It appears to me that one would take relief perpendicular to the fence (up to 2m), then establish a new LOP from that point.

Maybe I'm reading too much into it, but I assumed "remnants" of a barbed wire fence to be indicative that it is not a full barbed wire fence and as such only exists in the marked line on the diagram. That would mean you can go backwards and quickly be off the fence.

Though I also assume that most TDs who say "you get 2 meters off of barbed wire" really intend that you treat the barbed wire as an OB (because it likely is? because the most likely place for barbed wire would seem to be the boundary of the course?) and instead of moving 1 meter off the OB you can move 2...which would not be the normal relief rules in terms of using LOP.

 

[Rastnav]

If the barbed wire merely granted normal casual relief, then the stipulation "2m" wouldn't make much sense. You would get as much relief on the line of play as you needed to throw safely, whatever that was.

On tour when we see "2m relief from barbed wire" it's typically used in conjunction with OB. Under the old OB rules, this would have been 2m relief perpendicular to the wire which was the OB line. I'm not actually sure how that changes with new OB rules, but I think you would probably still be required to be 2m perpendicular, as you are required to take the full relief for purposes of safety, if I understand correctly.

But, given that there isn't OB here, I'm inclined to think that ideally the TD needs to be more explicit. If the TD isn't available, I'd play provisional shots from each possible lie.

 

[txmxer]

Maybe I'm reading too much into it, but I assumed "remnants" of a barbed wire fence to be indicative that it is not a full barbed wire fence and as such only exists in the marked line on the diagram. That would mean you can go backwards and quickly be off the fence.

Though I also assume that most TDs who say "you get 2 meters off of barbed wire" really intend that you treat the barbed wire as an OB (because it likely is? because the most likely place for barbed wire would seem to be the boundary of the course?) and instead of moving 1 meter off the OB you can move 2...which would not be the normal relief rules in terms of using LOP.

By strict reading of the rules, I agree with your original statement. Back along the LOP.

My statement kind of assumed that the remnant was adequately long that it would not be possible to move behind it without being OB.

 

[BillFleming]

The way I would understand/interpret it is the TD understands that there might be a barbed wire fence (or strand) that could be on the lie AND that taking relief back along the line of play might continue to keep the barbed wire on the line of play. So the TD granted a 2 meter rule to allow relief to be taken in any direction (except closer to the target). The part I don't get is the 2 meter allowance....6 feet? One meter should have been good enough, unless the TD was being polite and giving enough relief to allow a run-up instead of just making space for a standstill.

 

[roblee]

If the TD's statement was general (2m relief from barbed wire) then players must define the type of relief in every situation. Casual area relief? Casual obstacle relief? OB relief? Hazard relief? This scenario appears "casual obstacle relief", so I'd think line of play applies. #3. Not horizontal because it was not explicitly stated.

 

[krupicka]

First: There is no default relief from barbed wire. None.
Second: TDs need to be specific with their course rules. Each TD may mean something different when they say "2m relief from barbed wire". If it's unclear, the only person that can answer the question is the TD.

 

[biscoe]

The way I would understand/interpret it is the TD understands that there might be a barbed wire fence (or strand) that could be on the lie AND that taking relief back along the line of play might continue to keep the barbed wire on the line of play. So the TD granted a 2 meter rule to allow relief to be taken in any direction (except closer to the target).

You are reading a whole lot of stuff into the OP that is not there.

The part I don't get is the 2 meter allowance....6 feet? One meter should have been good enough, unless the TD was being polite and giving enough relief to allow a run-up instead of just making space for a standstill.

Allowing 2 meters (and requiring a minimum of 1 which is really the important part) relief from barbed wire is something I have done for 20 years at this point at Hawk Hollow. I am unsure if I was the first to do so or not. The reason for the rule here is player safety and has zero to do with run up/standstill or anything else. With one exception the barbed wire here is OB fence surrounding the course so the question in this thread would not apply. On the one exception (a pile of old fencing pushed up by equipment) the relief is defined as casual.

 

[_MTL_]

Allowing 2 meters (and requiring a minimum of 1 which is really the important part) relief from barbed wire is something I have done for 20 years at this point at Hawk Hollow. I am unsure if I was the first to do so or not. The reason for the rule here is player safety and has zero to do with run up/standstill or anything else. With one exception the barbed wire here is OB fence surrounding the course so the question in this thread would not apply. On the one exception (a pile of old fencing pushed up by equipment) the relief is defined as casual.

FWIW you were the first person I ever saw do it.

 

[araytx]

Maybe I'm reading too much into it, but I assumed "remnants" of a barbed wire fence to be indicative that it is not a full barbed wire fence and as such only exists in the marked line on the diagram. That would mean you can go backwards and quickly be off the fence.

Though I also assume that most TDs who say "you get 2 meters off of barbed wire" really intend that you treat the barbed wire as an OB (because it likely is? because the most likely place for barbed wire would seem to be the boundary of the course?) and instead of moving 1 meter off the OB you can move 2...which would not be the normal relief rules in terms of using LOP.

NO need to assume. that is correct, and I apologize if not clear in the OP.

First: There is no default relief from barbed wire. None.
Second: TDs need to be specific with their course rules. Each TD may mean something different when they say "2m relief from barbed wire". If it's unclear, the only person that can answer the question is the TD.

Yes!!! This^^^^^^^. So much.

To me, this is so true. I believe, in my heart of hearts (don't have evidence to back it up), that the TD was speaking about up to 2m of relief from barbed wire OB lines for player safety. But SO MANY times, we've played in a lot of events and the TD has TD'ed a lot of events, so in covering the rules, he/she/they will say the "shortened version" of what's intended, not realizing that the lack of clarification causes more issues. I've heard or seen written rules like, "Hole X plays as an island; if the tee shot doesn't land on the island go to the drop zone," "water in the ditch is casual," " Chain link fence (and imaginary extension) is OB" – many of which can be misinterpreted. I try to be as specific as possible on ours – to the point where I've differentiated free relief areas from an area you throw from after penalty. I use "drop SPOT" for those without penalty (yes a single spot) and "drop zone" for the teeing area after an OB throw. It is my hope that it eliminates confusion so players know a "drop spot" carries no penalty.

If the TD had specified the 2 meter relief from barbed wire OB lines (as I *think* was intended) then the correct answer might be d.

FWIW you were the first person I ever saw do it.

nice!

 

[araytx]

Maybe I'm reading too much into it, but I assumed "remnants" of a barbed wire fence to be indicative that it is not a full barbed wire fence and as such only exists in the marked line on the diagram. That would mean you can go backwards and quickly be off the fence.

Though I also assume that most TDs who say "you get 2 meters off of barbed wire" really intend that you treat the barbed wire as an OB (because it likely is? because the most likely place for barbed wire would seem to be the boundary of the course?) and instead of moving 1 meter off the OB you can move 2...which would not be the normal relief rules in terms of using LOP.

That is correct. How about more thoughts?

 

[_MTL_]

The issue with barbed wire is the inconsistency of it and people don't know what it is. Then if you are forcing relief (you MUST take 1 M or 2M) you technically need a waiver as forced relief is not allowed.

The best way to handle this is simple.

If OB: Paint / mark the line 1M from the wire. Then you are getting at least a meter away from it without forcing it, defining what is and isn't barbed wire and allowing up to 2 M.

If IB: Mark a relief area (note a casual area the player can still play from it, so that doesn't solve the issue) far enough from it to where no danger.

9 times of out 10, IMHO, the issue at hand can be solved with rules already in place and not need to get complex / get a waiver, etc.

 

[biscoe]

The issue with barbed wire is the inconsistency of it and people don't know what it is. Then if you are forcing relief (you MUST take 1 M or 2M) you technically need a waiver as forced relief is not allowed.

The best way to handle this is simple.

If OB: Paint / mark the line 1M from the wire. Then you are getting at least a meter away from it without forcing it, defining what is and isn't barbed wire and allowing up to 2 M.

If IB: Mark a relief area (note a casual area the player can still play from it, so that doesn't solve the issue) far enough from it to where no danger.

9 times of out 10, IMHO, the issue at hand can be solved with rules already in place and not need to get complex / get a waiver, etc.

Or there is the 1 in 10 where you have maybe a mile of it to deal with and thousand pound beasts walking around destroying any methods of marking.

 

[araytx]

The issue with barbed wire is the inconsistency of it and people don't know what it is. Then if you are forcing relief (you MUST take 1 M or 2M) you technically need a waiver as forced relief is not allowed.

The best way to handle this is simple.

If OB: Paint / mark the line 1M from the wire. Then you are getting at least a meter away from it without forcing it, defining what is and isn't barbed wire and allowing up to 2 M.

If IB: Mark a relief area (note a casual area the player can still play from it, so that doesn't solve the issue) far enough from it to where no danger.

9 times of out 10, IMHO, the issue at hand can be solved with rules already in place and not need to get complex / get a waiver, etc.

But this wasn't "forced" relief, it was stated in the player meeting as if the "up to two meters relief for barned wire" was "optional" such as for an OB or near OB throw. Unfortunately. this throw was neither one.

 

[BillFleming]

But this wasn't "forced" relief, it was stated in the player meeting as if the "up to two meters relief for barned wire" was "optional" such as for an OB or near OB throw. Unfortunately. this throw was neither one.

The TD may have been making the rule based on:
803.02 Relief from Obstacles

1. A player may obtain relief from the following obstacles that are on or behind the lie: harmful insects or animals, people, or any item as designated by the Director. To obtain relief, the player may mark a new lie that is on the line of play, farther from the target, at the nearest point that provides relief (unless greater relief is announced by the Director).

That says a player MAY obtain relief, not that they have to take it. It is handy where there might be something that COULD cause harm to a player (bee's nest, thorn bushes, cacti, barbed wire) and allows the player to determine if they need to change their lie. And in this case the TD has provided 'greater relief' (up to 2 meters from the lie).

 

[glassila]

The TD may have been making the rule based on:
803.02 Relief from Obstacles

1. A player may obtain relief from the following obstacles that are on or behind the lie: harmful insects or animals, people, or any item as designated by the Director. To obtain relief, the player may mark a new lie that is on the line of play, farther from the target, at the nearest point that provides relief (unless greater relief is announced by the Director).

That says a player MAY obtain relief, not that they have to take it. It is handy where there might be something that COULD cause harm to a player (bee's nest, thorn bushes, cacti, barbed wire) and allows the player to determine if they need to change their lie. And in this case the TD has provided 'greater relief' (up to 2 meters from the lie).

Up to 2 meters from the barbed wire, not from the lie.

 

[_MTL_]

But this wasn't "forced" relief, it was stated in the player meeting as if the "up to two meters relief for barned wire" was "optional" such as for an OB or near OB throw. Unfortunately. this throw was neither one.

Correct. Forced relief in this situation would require a waiver.

Generally I've had this wording approved.

"Players must take 1M of relief off ______. Players may take up to 2M if they choose"