Relief from "unsafe lie"

[PBizme]

Trying to get confirmation on a situation that came up recently in a sanctioned tournament where a cardmate was inbounds near a creek at the top of a bank that slopes sharply towards the water. No painted line or or rope. Water defined the OB and he was more than a meter from the actual water line.

He asked about taking relief due to an unsafe lie. I told him that I didn't believe that was an option unless the TD had declared it an unsafe area. He argued that it was, but only if the entire card agreed and he let it go since I said that I didn't think it was unsafe. I still want confirmation from internet strangers to make sure I've got the right info for next time

I believe that 803.02.C (https://www.pdga.com/rules/official-rules-disc-golf/80302) and QA-OBS-5 (https://www.pdga.com/faq/rules/qa-o...-plants-such-poison-ivy-poison-oak-or-nettles) support my argument that there was no option for free relief no matter what the rest of us thought of his lie. Is there anything that would support his claim that free relief was a potential option?

The other issue with relief in this situation would be that there was no way to go backwards along the line to the basket to get his relief and be in bounds. Is there something in the rules that haven't found which documents a way to take relief for some situation (free or penalized) which isn't directly back from the basket other than throwing from your previous location?

I think his only option for relief in this situation would have been to go back and re-throw from the previous lie with an additional penalty stroke.

 

[Cgkdisc]

Trying to get confirmation on a situation that came up recently in a sanctioned tournament where a cardmate was inbounds near a creek at the top of a bank that slopes sharply towards the water. No painted line or or rope. Water defined the OB and he was more than a meter from the actual water line.

He asked about taking relief due to an unsafe lie. I told him that I didn't believe that was an option unless the TD had declared it an unsafe area. He argued that it was, but only if the entire card agreed and he let it go since I said that I didn't think it was unsafe. I still want confirmation from internet strangers to make sure I've got the right info for next time

I believe that 803.02.C (https://www.pdga.com/rules/official-rules-disc-golf/80302) and QA-OBS-5 (https://www.pdga.com/faq/rules/qa-o...-plants-such-poison-ivy-poison-oak-or-nettles) support my argument that there was no option for free relief no matter what the rest of us thought of his lie. Is there anything that would support his claim that free relief was a potential option?

The other issue with relief in this situation would be that there was no way to go backwards along the line to the basket to get his relief and be in bounds. Is there something in the rules that haven't found which documents a way to take relief for some situation (free or penalized) which isn't directly back from the basket other than throwing from your previous location?

I think his only option for relief in this situation would have been to go back and re-throw from the previous lie with an additional penalty stroke.

In this case, unfortunately, the player has to re-throw with penalty if they choose not to play their lie. His lie wouldn't be the only one with this issue in this hole design presuming the bank is sloped and more than one meter wide. Not sure how those who went OB in the creek would be able to take a stance within one meter. Sounds like the top of the bank should perhaps be the OB line along the stretch with steep slope?

 

[PBizme]

In this case, unfortunately, the player has to re-throw with penalty if they choose not to play their lie. His lie wouldn't be the only one with this issue in this hole design presuming the bank is sloped and more than one meter wide. Not sure how those who went OB in the creek would be able to take a stance within one meter. Sounds like the top of the bank should perhaps be the OB line along the stretch with steep slope?

I agree that marking the OB at the top of the slope would probably be a good idea. I can't say for sure how anyone who went into the creek took their relief since I didn't witness any. I think it's certainly possible to come up with a legal stance because the bank is only a few feet high and I personally wouldn't consider it dangerous. Just less than ideal and something that I can see someone hoping to find a way to avoid if possible.

Sounds like we're in agreement on what his legal options were though with the layout we were dealing with.

 

[ru4por]

Sounds like something the TD should have addressed better. It doesn't take much of a sloped bank to become "unsafe" for old guys. :\......

 

[DavidSauls]

Sounds like something the TD should have addressed better. It doesn't take much of a sloped bank to become "unsafe" for old guys. :\......

I've pretty well demonstrated that any course feature can be unsafe, if you're brittle enough.

 

[Putt for D'oh]

presuming the bank is sloped and more than one meter wide.

This brings up a question i've had for a long time about distances and slope. In most cases the slope is gentle enough to be relatively inconsequential to a measurement that matters, though argument could be made in/out of a 10m circle where the disc happens to fall on the line and the few inches difference between map distance and measured down the slope distance is a factor, steep slopes have always made me wonder about the proper measurement. I've encountered the OP's situation in casual rounds. Water OB, but really should be some line at the top of the slope. When/how do you decide map width vs ground distance? if that makes sense.

 

[araytx]

This brings up a question i've had for a long time about distances and slope. In most cases the slope is gentle enough to be relatively inconsequential to a measurement that matters, though argument could be made in/out of a 10m circle where the disc happens to fall on the line and the few inches difference between map distance and measured down the slope distance is a factor, steep slopes have always made me wonder about the proper measurement. I've encountered the OP's situation in casual rounds. Water OB, but really should be some line at the top of the slope. When/how do you decide map width vs ground distance? if that makes sense.

To me it's clear because the rule for defining a putt is clear. It's defined "... as measured from the rear of the marker disc to the base of the target...." Thus the 10 m circle is not necessarily either one (though in most cases it is "along the slope"). It's the straight line from the marker to the base (pole) of the basket.

That's what I see. That's how the circle works. Anything within that distance is a putt otherwise it is a throw.