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803.02 Optional Relief along line of play.

Doofenshmirtz

Double Eagle Member
Gold level trusted reviewer
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Jul 6, 2012
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1,312
In this obstacles rule, 803.02(E), a rule that allows a player to free optional relief anywhere along the line of play after going OB as shown in this video?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ao3Qr-3fpNE&t=46s

As I read the rule, this optional relief would still only apply to taking relief from obstacles. But the optional relief under 803.02(D) allows a player at any time to move back to anywhere they want along the line of play by taking one penalty stroke, and after going OB, anywhere along the line of play that remains in bounds, for free, after going OB. It seems a little nonsensical to reward an OB shot with such a free lie as depicted in the video.
 
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In this obstacles rule, 803.02(E), a rule that allows a player to free optional relief anywhere along the line of play after going OB as shown in this video?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ao3Qr-3fpNE&t=46s

As I read the rule, this optional relief would still only apply to taking relief from obstacles. But the optional relief under 803.02(D) allows a player at any time to move back to anywhere they want along the line of play by taking one penalty stroke, and after going OB, anywhere along the line of play that remains in bounds, for free, after going OB. It seems a little nonsensical to reward an OB shot with such a free lie as depicted in the video.
The updated ball golf rule pertaining to OB relief will now allow players relief along the line called Ground Already Covered which is defined as a straight line from where you went OB back toward your previous lie, typically the tee. I suspect our RC will consider this option for a future rules update.
 
The updated ball golf rule pertaining to OB relief will now allow players relief along the line called Ground Already Covered which is defined as a straight line from where you went OB back toward your previous lie, typically the tee. I suspect our RC will consider this option for a future rules update.

Well, this really doesn't address my question, at least I don't think it does. Relief, in the context of an obstacle, seems to be to be relief from an obstacle. I guess the rule can be interpreted to mean that when you go out of bounds, you may place the lie anywhere on the line of play, further from the baske, without further penalty. Of course, this will only assist on doglegs, irregular out of bounds lines and golf courses were bunkers and greens are OB (maybe other situations that I'm not thinking of).

I can aso read the word "relief" to require that there be an obstacle and, if there is an obstacle as defined by the Obstacle rule (harmful insects, animals, people or something else as defined by the TD), more relief than is allowed under 803.02(A) and (B), and take a penalty throw. If there is not obstacle, the rule does not apply as relocation would not be "relief" from anything.

I guess the problem that I have with the first interpretation is it essentially defines OB as an obstacle and then makes 806.02(D) essentially inapplicable in situations where the line of play traverses any inbounds area.
 
It's unfortunate that the Optional Relief rule is under the title "Relief from Obstacles".

However the starting phrase for the Optional Relief rule says: "A player may elect at any time to take optional relief..." which means that it does not need to be relief from an obstacle.
 
Well, this really doesn't address my question, at least I don't think it does. Relief, in the context of an obstacle, seems to be to be relief from an obstacle. I guess the rule can be interpreted to mean that when you go out of bounds, you may place the lie anywhere on the line of play, further from the baske, without further penalty. Of course, this will only assist on doglegs, irregular out of bounds lines and golf courses were bunkers and greens are OB (maybe other situations that I'm not thinking of).

I can aso read the word "relief" to require that there be an obstacle and, if there is an obstacle as defined by the Obstacle rule (harmful insects, animals, people or something else as defined by the TD), more relief than is allowed under 803.02(A) and (B), and take a penalty throw. If there is not obstacle, the rule does not apply as relocation would not be "relief" from anything.

I guess the problem that I have with the first interpretation is it essentially defines OB as an obstacle and then makes 806.02(D) essentially inapplicable in situations where the line of play traverses any inbounds area.
My comment was in relation to your comment implying that taking additional relief back on LOP from your OB mark (if allowed) was not enough "punishment". Ball golf is now fine with moving back as needing no additional punishment versus their rule before 2023 which required playing from previous lie in addition to the stroke penalty.
 
It's unfortunate that the Optional Relief rule is under the title "Relief from Obstacles".

However the starting phrase for the Optional Relief rule says: "A player may elect at any time to take optional relief..." which means that it does not need to be relief from an obstacle.

I acknowledge that and that your interpretation is not unreasonable. But context seems kind of important. What is to prevent the following from allowing a player to throw from out of bounds:

"The lie may then be relocated by marking a new lie which is farther from the target and is on the line of play."

This would seem to be an absurd result which would seem to mean that there are some limits to the relief rules.

Also, when I look at 801.01, I see a familiar principle of applying the most direct rule. Which is more direct, the rule that tells a player to play from a lie within one meter of where a disc went out of bounds or a relief-from-obstacles rule that allows placement at any point on the line of play further from that lie even when there is no obstacle?

Finally, with a little further looking around, I see that another hint about the "optional relief" rule and its "free relief" description when associated with an OB situation from the definition of a penalty at 802.01(C).

"Penalties that are associated with making a throw are those for: out-of-bounds, hazard, missed mandatory, above two meters, stance, marking, taking improper relief, and lost disc."

This seems to suggest that when improper relief is taken, that is, relief that is beyond the relief from an obstacle allowed by 803.02(A) and (B), that you get a penalty, which would mean that the word "optional" doesn't necessarily mean that the relief is available in the absence of an obstacle, but rather the option is that if there is an obstacle, more relief than is available without penalty (i.e., "improper relief") may be taken with a penalty unless the disc went out of bounds.

Your offered interpretation of 803.02(E) would, along with the "improper relief" comment from 803.02(E) seem to imply that 803.02(C) allows the player to basically, walk from the obstructed lie to the basket, drop down a mini, drop in the his putter and add one penalty stroke. This could potentially allow a player on a Par 5 to throw to a spot behind an obstruction (1 throw), walk to the basket, put down their mini, drop in the putt (1 penalty throw for improper relief and 1 throw) and card an eagle 3 on the hole. Because if "relief" is not "relief from an obstacle" limited to "too far back along the line of play," then that one penalty throw would govern that hypothetical unless I am missing something.

While not strictly reliant on the language of the rule, it does seem to make sense to me that if a dangerous insect, animal or people are present near OB, you might want to let the disc golfer get as far away as they need to feel safe about not hitting them with an errant throw and not limit them to enough room to clear the danger - just as one example of why no penalty would be assessed if the OB rule mandated lie were behind an Obstacle as defined in 803.02(A). That would be my take on the application of fairness to this rule as mandated by 801.01.

And that location of the rule in the obstacles and relief rule does seem to give further context even if that context is "unfortunate" to a wider interpretation.

Again, I'm not saying your take is unreasonable. It just doesn't seem as clear to me as you seem to think it is. A reference to 806.02(D) to 803.02(E) would help to make it clear that your interpretation is, indeed correct. A change in language to 803.02(E) could help make it clear that it is not a "free relief from OB" if that was not intended.

As to Chuck's "ground-already-covered" rule, I really kind of hate that as someone who has left some pretty thick rough on a few courses. If the player wants a do-over, they should go back to the previous lie with a penalty, not anywhere in between that lie and their new lie. Just my opinion.

BTW, this is all hitting me as I think more about this rule after a long day of (mostly) working on writing something very long and complicated, so I acknowledge that I may be missing something obvious. Feel free to pull the rug out from under my reasoning.
 
Wow, that's a lot. But, I have got a cold so I have just enough energy to do this (and nothing else). And feel just crappy enough to be too honest. So,
(Quotes edited for brevity.)
What is to prevent the following from allowing a player to throw from out of bounds: "The lie may then be relocated by marking a new lie which is farther from the target and is on the line of play."
"802.07 Stance
"A. If the lie has been marked by a marker disc, then when the disc is released, the player must: […]
3. Have all supporting points in-bounds."

And,

"806.02 Out-of-Bounds
A. An out-of-bounds (OB) area is an area designated by the Director from which a disc may not be played, and within which a stance may not be taken."

Just for fun, I will point out that there could be a question as to whether you could place the mini so it was all or partially out of bounds at the very back of an OB area. Because you could have all supporting points behind the mini and in-bounds, and maybe "from which a may not be played" doesn't apply to the mini. I will tell you that the TDs I've talked to about this get quite vehement that you can't, and their ruling is final. So don't try it.

Which is more direct, the rule that tells a player to play from a lie within one meter of where a disc went out of bounds or a relief-from-obstacles rule that allows placement at any point on the line of play further from that lie even when there is no obstacle?

These are two rules that happen in sequence. First, you mark a lie on the meter. Then, you can take free Optional Relief back from that mini.

Whether there is an obstacle or not does not matter at all for Optional Relief, despite it being in the Relief from Obstacles section. Titles are just there to help find rules. They don't modify the rules within a section any more than the section numbers do.

This seems to suggest that when improper relief is taken, that is, relief that is beyond the relief from an obstacle allowed by 803.02(A) and (B), that you get a penalty, which would mean that the word "optional" doesn't necessarily mean that the relief is available in the absence of an obstacle, but rather the option is that if there is an obstacle, more relief than is available without penalty (i.e., "improper relief") may be taken with a penalty unless the disc went out of bounds.

I don't really know what you are trying to say. Would it help if I point out that taking improper relief can lead to DQ, while properly taking optional relief does not? So they are not interchangeable.

803.02(C) allows the player to basically, walk from the obstructed lie to the basket, drop down a mini, drop in the putter and add one penalty stroke. This could potentially allow a player on a Par 5 to throw to a spot behind an obstruction (1 throw), walk to the basket, put down their mini, drop in the putt (1 penalty throw for improper relief and 1 throw) and card an eagle 3 on the hole.

Yep, that's exactly what it says. You don't even need to invoke the other implications you mentioned. You could probably do it under 803.03, too. Note that you weren't as clever as you could have been. Taking relief when there is no obstruction or casual water is also "other than as allowed by rule". Why not take under-the-basket relief from the tee and get an albatross?

HOWEVER, there is some wording in the Competition Manual which means you would be disqualified if you did that. And even if the TD couldn't find any written justification, they would probably (and have the ability to) disqualify you under the "everybody knows you can't do that" reasoning.

Taking improper relief really should be a misplay for playing from the wrong lie. And it could possibly be interpreted that way even under the current rules, because 811. F. 1. applies when "The player has played from a lie that is not the correct lie." It goes on to list some examples, but the Misplay rule is not limited to just those examples.

While not strictly reliant on the language of the rule, …That would be my take on the application of fairness to this rule as mandated by 801.01.

This part was so tough to follow I didn't quote it all, but seems to be based on the idea that the only kind of relief available after going OB is free optional relief. Nothing says that. All the other kinds of relief are still available, based on where the mini is. For animals and insects, "the nearest point that provides relief" is as far as the player needs, but no more.

And that location of the rule in the obstacles and relief rule does seem to give further context even if that context is "unfortunate" to a wider interpretation.
Again, I'm not saying your take is unreasonable. It just doesn't seem as clear to me as you seem to think it is. A reference to 806.02(D) to 803.02(E) would help to make it clear that your interpretation is, indeed correct. A change in language to 803.02(E) could help make it clear that it is not a "free relief from OB" if that was not intended.
I agree it is not as clear as it could be. Optional Relief should have its own section and a new name, as it does not depend on obstacles, nor is it actually relief (because relief is free).

As for referencing the optional relief rule in the OB section, that makes some sense, but I would prefer simply stating what the player can do, right there in the OB section. References generally should be avoided. If the rule was in the OB part, it could also specify the unlimited LOP relief is relief from the resulting lie after going OB, not from the OB itself. That way, it would also be more clear you can take it from the drop zone and anywhere else you would have a lie after taking an OB penalty.

As to Chuck's "ground-already-covered" rule, I really kind of hate that as someone who has left some pretty thick rough on a few courses. If the player wants a do-over, they should go back to the previous lie with a penalty, not anywhere in between that lie and their new lie. Just my opinion.
OK, that's one opinion. Thanks.
 
Watch the YT video of the final round of the 2022 Memorial Championship Tournament. Two players went OB near a mando. The first player took her meter in and had an awkward throw to make the mando. The second player, knowing the rules better, went back along the line of play until she had a very good line to make the mando. The PDGA rules usually only allow for one penalty per throw, so the OB is a one stroke penalty, same as going back along the line of play, since the OB happened first and both are the same penalty, only the OB penalty counts.

It is similar to Ball golf's Unplayable Lie rule in that a player can designate their lie as unplayable at any time and take relief back on the line of play with a one stroke penalty. Unlike disc golf, in ball golf multiple penalties can be added up in one play....so a stroke for OB plus a stroke for calling the new spot unplayable and going back along the line of play.
 
Disc golf OB has been generally treated much the same as the old hazard rules in golf since we in disc golf do not lose our distance. So, it seems the rule discussed here is very similar to the relief options from a penalty area(formerly hazard). I am not following the assertion that it's an absurd result, as it's clear on cannot walk back into out of bounds. So, some OB lines(like golf's old lateral/red hazards) will not be subject to this, as it would be impossible to walk back on the required line and stay in bounds.
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We have a lot of mesquite trees with huge, dangerous thorns. To take a stance in them is to risk injury - I nearly lost an eye once. We play casually but with PDGA rules. When a disc ends up in a mesquite, we have been taking relief backward without a penalty stroke.

So is that optional re-throw with a stroke or would a card decision give relief?
 
We have a lot of mesquite trees with huge, dangerous thorns. To take a stance in them is to risk injury - I nearly lost an eye once. We play casually but with PDGA rules. When a disc ends up in a mesquite, we have been taking relief backward without a penalty stroke.

So is that optional re-throw with a stroke or would a card decision give relief?

If during an event the TD would have to have allowed for casual relief from the mesquite for you to be able to take relief without penalty. If not during an event do what makes the most sense to you and your friends.
 
We have a lot of mesquite trees with huge, dangerous thorns. To take a stance in them is to risk injury - I nearly lost an eye once. We play casually but with PDGA rules. When a disc ends up in a mesquite, we have been taking relief backward without a penalty stroke.

So is that optional re-throw with a stroke or would a card decision give relief?

First off, we have those types of mesquite. They can be gnarly. Briars can be terrible as well.

For casual we are flexible in general. Nobody wants to see anyone get injured.

Tournaments, probably too subjective to accommodate
 
We have a lot of mesquite trees with huge, dangerous thorns. To take a stance in them is to risk injury - I nearly lost an eye once. We play casually but with PDGA rules. When a disc ends up in a mesquite, we have been taking relief backward without a penalty stroke.

So is that optional re-throw with a stroke or would a card decision give relief?

Are you here in Arizona? When I play a casual round, it's "whatever you want to do", I'm not playing you for money, standings, or anything else...so go for it. However, if we decided at the start that we are playing by the rules....that's a different matter and you don't get relief without a penalty. The only exception is:

803.02.b Relief from Obstacles:
If an obstacle physically prevents the player from taking a legal stance behind the marker disc, or from marking a disc above or below the playing surface, the player may mark a new lie on the line of play immediately behind that obstacle.

As long as the card agrees the player can't take a legal stance, there is no penalty.

Otherwise, casual play - if we decide as a group that we don't care if you take relief. Sanctioned play - if the TD decided to allow relief from mesquite trees.

Also, as I have had discussions about before, taking a stance does NOT mean that the stance lets you throw towards the basket. If the stance only allows you to throw sideways, backwards, overhand, under branches, a slider, etc.......that is still a legal stance.
 
As long as the card agrees the player can't take a legal stance, there is no penalty.

That's what we figured but one regular guy in our group has started playing events and wants to stick to the exact rule. I TD'd many years ago and have been trying to clear up some grey areas for him - especially ones that can benefit the player.
 
That's what we figured but one regular guy in our group has started playing events and wants to stick to the exact rule. I TD'd many years ago and have been trying to clear up some grey areas for him - especially ones that can benefit the player.

Well, now you know he wants to play by the rules. But, there's nothing stopping HIM from playing by the rules even if no one else does. Or does he expect everyone to play by the rules in a casual round because he does? Unless you are playing for tags, money, or something else it shouldn't matter how everyone plays. Heck, I play by the rules in casual, non practice, rounds and I don't care what anyone else on my card does. Now, if I'm playing a round where my intention is to get in some course work....then I play however I feel like....mulligan - sure, take a lie outside of a thorn bush where I could take a stance - sure. But I let my card mates know how I'm playing (by the rules or not).
 
That's what we figured but one regular guy in our group has started playing events and wants to stick to the exact rule. I TD'd many years ago and have been trying to clear up some grey areas for him - especially ones that can benefit the player.

One thing to stress about this rule is that it says that you literally CAN'T take a stance. lots of people try to extend this rule to cover situations where getting to the disc is difficult or very inconvenient

If an obstacle physically prevents the player from taking a legal stance behind the marker disc

edit to add:
https://youtu.be/u6aWRXr5QeU?t=1542

good video of Calvin from the most recent OTB tour skins. (the video starts at 25:44 if my embedded time doesn't work)
his disc is not easy or comfortable to get to, but there's nothing that physically prevents him from getting to his disc. his comment that it's a "fake rule" is very true
 
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That's what we figured but one regular guy in our group has started playing events and wants to stick to the exact rule. I TD'd many years ago and have been trying to clear up some grey areas for him - especially ones that can benefit the player.

What exact rule is he 'sticking to'? The rule is pretty exact as it is - if you can take a legal, physical stance, you have to do so or take a penalty; if you can't physically take a legal stance, you get relief by the rule. My point about the card agreeing is that if a player says they cannot physically take a stance, the card has to agree to that. Let's say one player disagrees, they would have to show how they could physically take a legal stance....if they can show that, then the throwing player MUST take the legal stance or take a penalty.
 
how much blood do you have to shed before you can declare you can't physically take a legal stance?
 

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