Discmania splits with Innova

[Countchunkula]

Old/new mold beast is a good example of a new mold not needing to be approved since it was sold under an existing name. The roc is another one. Innova sold destroyers made with Vulcan tops for a while. Lots of precedent for new tooling not requiring approval as long as it uses an existing name.

I don't know what the benefit would be for discmania to get their new/old discs approved again. Assuming the org decided the dm originals line was too big for the loophole.

 

[Rastnav]

We can also look at a tiny bit of recent history. On June 23rd 2020 the PDGA approved the "DD2 (new)". I assume those were produced by Innova, but something changed about the mold.

 

[seedlings]

We can also look at a tiny bit of recent history. On June 23rd 2020 the PDGA approved the "DD2 (new)". I assume those were produced by Innova, but something changed about the mold.

That had to be the very last batch of Innova mfr'd discs.

 

[Flick Maniac]

Good point. And I dont think those even made it to consumers hands.

 

[DiscJunkie]

My understanding of the Beast and why the mold was changed:
The first runs of the Beast were deemed by Innova to be too close to the Orc in stability.
They, Innova, modified the wing to be more convex and thus, less stable. I don't think the modification was submitted for approval, for whatever reason. This became one of Barry's championship commemoration discs.
The pre-Barry Beasts (1x's too, I think) were in demand as a more stable Beast.
ApThen, a few years back, Innova released that original mold as the Beast-X.

Not really relevant to the thread, but hopefully that can clear up that question.
If I got anything incorrect, please let me know what you know.

 

[Hampstead]

I believe that coincided with the DX stamp switch.

 

[Three Putt]

The rules are vague, but there are (old) (new) approvals for discs with the same name i.e. Gateway had a driver called the Warrior that went OOP and they reused the name on a mid. Same story for the Scout; they both have (old) (new) approvals. The Apache has an initial approval and a (retooled) approval. So in the case of Gateway, they have these updated approvals.

That is totally different from the Roc approval, which is still dated a full decade ('87) before the Rancho Roc was introduced ('97). Why are they different? Don't know. Innova does have three (retooled) approvals (Aviar XD, Birdie and Cheetah) and one (old) (new) approval for the two Eagle versions they sold. Why are those different from the Roc? Don't know.

Basically who knows what happens now.

 

[biscoe]

Basically who knows what happens now.

The PDGA has moved into the 21st century on a lot of things recently. Hopefully this bubbles its way to the top soon as well. Seems so simple to approve molds rather than names, but it has always seemed that way to me so what do I know?

 

[Three Putt]

The PDGA has moved into the 21st century on a lot of things recently. Hopefully this bubbles its way to the top soon as well. Seems so simple to approve molds rather than names, but it has always seemed that way to me so what do I know?

From the way the rule is written I'm not sure the PDGA can force them to re-submit the discs. As a PR "we are in charge, ya know?" perspective you would think the PDGA would call 'em up and ask them to resubmit the new discs. If Discmania balked at the price for re-submitting, the PDGA should just go "so no one will ever hear about this, but that invoice might get lost in the mail." :| New approvals go on the list, PDGA looks like they are in charge and you and me never know otherwise.

 

[Innova63]

... Plus, how many times has an entire brand completely split away from a manufacturer? Is this a first? ...

Definitely not a first...

or second...

DGA split away from Wham-O, Innova and Lightning...
I think other then maybe Wham-O, they have been with Discraft the longest...

 

[Rastnav]

Definitely not a first...

or second...

DGA split away from Wham-O, Innova and Lightning...
I think other then maybe Wham-O, they have been with Discraft the longest...

Interesting.

Looking at the list of DGA discs approved by the PDGA, I see that there is a massive gap between the approval of the Blowfly in 1996, and the approval of the Titanic in 2007. I'm assuming that's when they broke away from Innova and went to Discraft? Especially given all of the of the references on the approval list to "modified Stingray" and "modified Aviar", etc. I'm thinking they needed new molds when they went Discraft. The various Hi-Tec, etc. discs seem to no longer be offered by DGA?

I wonder whether DGA actually owned the mold for the Blowfly/Gumbputt, as that seems like the only other disc approved before 2007 that DGA currently offers, unless I'm missing something.

 

[Innova63]

Interesting.

Looking at the list of DGA discs approved by the PDGA, I see that there is a massive gap between the approval of the Blowfly in 1996, and the approval of the Titanic in 2007. I'm assuming that's when they broke away from Innova and went to Discraft? Especially given all of the of the references on the approval list to "modified Stingray" and "modified Aviar", etc. I'm thinking they needed new molds when they went Discraft. The various Hi-Tec, etc. discs seem to no longer be offered by DGA?

I wonder whether DGA actually owned the mold for the Blowfly/Gumbputt, as that seems like the only other disc approved before 2007 that DGA currently offers, unless I'm missing something.

Without doing any research...
I think they went from Innova,
factored Rocs, Aviars, Whippets, Vipers

to Lightning
Airplanes became #'s based on flight (kind of) pattern

before Discraft...
Molds by Discraft but plastics engineered by DGA

If memory serves me, in '98 was when DGA had Discraft use the Cyclone and X-Clone mold with different plastic to make ?? from Cyclone and Terminator from X-Clone. I think the plastic actually shrunk slightly in the cooling process.

 

[ChrisWoj]

My understanding of the Beast and why the mold was changed:
The first runs of the Beast were deemed by Innova to be too close to the Orc in stability.
They, Innova, modified the wing to be more convex and thus, less stable. I don't think the modification was submitted for approval, for whatever reason. This became one of Barry's championship commemoration discs.
The pre-Barry Beasts (1x's too, I think) were in demand as a more stable Beast.
ApThen, a few years back, Innova released that original mold as the Beast-X.

Not really relevant to the thread, but hopefully that can clear up that question.
If I got anything incorrect, please let me know what you know.

This is very anecdotal, I don't even recall where I heard it and I probably heard it over 10 years ago - but my understanding was that the Beast was retooled because Barry had a "signature S-curving flight path" preference/specialty (maybe similar to how we look at Nikko and the force flex shot?) and less capable players struggled to replicate the shot, leading Innova to retool the mold to make it easier to do... end result on Barry's end being Barry actively seeking out the old molds, choosing not to throw the signature retooled discs.

That could all be totally wrong. Just what I'd heard.

 

[Three Putt]

Without doing any research...
I think they went from Innova,
factored Rocs, Aviars, Whippets, Vipers

to Lightning
Airplanes became #'s based on flight (kind of) pattern

before Discraft...
Molds by Discraft but plastics engineered by DGA

If memory serves me, in '98 was when DGA had Discraft use the Cyclone and X-Clone mold with different plastic to make ?? from Cyclone and Terminator from X-Clone. I think the plastic actually shrunk slightly in the cooling process.

The Lighting Airplanes to #'s switch had nothing to do with DGA. Both of those were made by Lighting and sold by Lightning.

DGA had some discs that were numbered that Innova made, which were mostly factored Stingrays. Those discs had names like "#1 Professional Driver" or "#2 Hi-Tec Driver", Stuff like that. When Lighting renamed the discs, they used names like "#1 Driver" which technically were not the same as the DGA disc names.

I don't recall Lightning ever making DGA's discs. They went from factored Innova discs to the Discraft discs like the Terminator and Flathead Cyclone. They also had the Gumbputt and Power Drive; no telling who makes those.

 

[Three Putt]

Interesting.

Looking at the list of DGA discs approved by the PDGA, I see that there is a massive gap between the approval of the Blowfly in 1996, and the approval of the Titanic in 2007. I'm assuming that's when they broke away from Innova and went to Discraft? Especially given all of the of the references on the approval list to "modified Stingray" and "modified Aviar", etc. I'm thinking they needed new molds when they went Discraft. The various Hi-Tec, etc. discs seem to no longer be offered by DGA?

I wonder whether DGA actually owned the mold for the Blowfly/Gumbputt, as that seems like the only other disc approved before 2007 that DGA currently offers, unless I'm missing something.

DGA held the basket patent and made almost all their money on Mach III's. They dabbled in golf discs, but they were not a serious disc seller after Innova got the patent on beveled discs. They switched from Innova making their discs to Discraft making their discs in the mid 90's, but those were all things like Hawks, Cyclones, and X-Clones made in a really low-grade plastic and usually in 150 class weights. They were labeled "RDGA" for "Recreational Disc Golf Association". They really were not at all trying to compete with Innova or Discraft.

Ed Headrick died in 2002. The basket patent had expired in the 90's so they were losing basket sales to competitors like the DisCatcher. Innova's golf disc patent expired in 2002. DGA had new leadership and jumped into with discs like the Squall and Riptide, but Discraft was making them and those disc approvals oddly are listed under Discraft. Not sure why. The Tsunami and Rogue approvals are also listed under Discraft. 2007 was just when DGA started submitting the discs for approval instead of Discraft.

So basically the timeline for DGA getting serious about golf discs is 2003 and by then the relationship they had with Discraft was probably 8-9 years old.

 

[Innova63]

The Lighting Airplanes to #'s switch had nothing to do with DGA. Both of those were made by Lighting and sold by Lightning.

DGA had some discs that were numbered that Innova made, which were mostly factored Stingrays. Those discs had names like "#1 Professional Driver" or "#2 Hi-Tec Driver", Stuff like that. When Lighting renamed the discs, they used names like "#1 Driver" which technically were not the same as the DGA disc names.

I don't recall Lightning ever making DGA's discs. They went from factored Innova discs to the Discraft discs like the Terminator and Flathead Cyclone. They also had the Gumbputt and Power Drive; no telling who makes those.

I had a stack of the Lightning DGA discs, I've been slowly giving the away (signed and given to me from Ed)

 

[Three Putt]

As for the Gumbputt...DGA has to own the Gumbputt and Power Drive molds. They have made those for forever. Who makes those discs? No telling.

Back when those discs came out, Innova didn't make discs. They had the molds and they contracted with injection molding places to make discs. None of the "San Marino"-era Innova discs were actually made by Innova; they couldn't make discs until they opened the Ontario factory. Tim Selinske said San Marino was where the P.O. Box was, the company was never actually located there. So those discs were made at a variety of places around L.A.

You would have to assume that DGA had some Bay-Area injection molding place contracted to make the Gumbputt and Power Drive and that might still be how they do that.

 

[Three Putt]

I had a stack of the Lightning DGA discs, I've been slowly giving the away (signed and given to me from Ed)

What are they? Like what are the disc names?

 

[Innova63]

What are they? Like what are the disc names?

I really don't know which planes were the which numbers...




Ed came to Wisconsin in 1995 for the Fox Valley Open. The old Disc Golf Journal sponsored Ken Climo to come and play there as the course was rated very highly by the Editor/Owner of DGJ. Ed had a bunch of his discs there to sell and since I was helping the TD (Tom Jenkins) he signed and gave me a bunch.

 

[Innova63]

...

Back when those discs came out, Innova didn't make discs. They had the molds and they contracted with injection molding places to make discs. None of the "San Marino"-era Innova discs were actually made by Innova; they couldn't make discs until they opened the Ontario factory. Tim Selinske said San Marino was where the P.O. Box was, the company was never actually located there. So those discs were made at a variety of places around L.A....

Innova not making the San Marinos...

that is the first I have heard that portion of the Innova-Champion history...

Thanks