Now that's a pro call-out

[discgman]

Responding

Following the rules is degrading the sport?



bee-oh-oh, aitch-oh-oh

ProTip: Don't play.

You missed my point entirely. Using the rules of a game (assuming you have indebt knowledge of the rules) to get into the head of another player or gaining an advantage is what I am talking about. Calling foot faults consistantly instead of pulling the person aside, saying you need to watch how your doing this or that or Im calling you on it is big difference.

And I wasnt using the excuse I have to work the next day as a bitch, because I dont bitch. But having to hear the other people who dont work bitch all weekend makes the experiance worse.

 

[discgman]

I will add to this

I think you maybe are missing his point. If I interpret what he is trying to say is that when players call a foot fault as a bid to gain an edge on the player. I have seen it where a player was ahead of a guy and the guy calls a questionable foot fault where the player then gets be fuddled and messes up on the rest of the hole as well as the next few holes. I think that was the point he was trying to convey on what he feels is degrading.

The rule book still doesn't clarify all the scenarios in which a foot fault or stance call can be made. Clarify the jump putt. How many seconds do you have to show balance. If when the disc settles in basket, when is it really settled? Does every part of your body have to be behind the marker or lie or can you lean over while leaving foot. Whats the deal with over using the unplayable lie rule if your disc rolls into a deep canyon that you can still get too. These are subjective and ultimately gets to be a group decision. But these things are what I see every tournament and it seems every person has a different take on it. Which then confuses everyone even more.

 

[discgman]

Well

I agree that having a marshall on some cards and a roaming marshall isn't the answer. How about if it is an A-tier on up, have 6 or more marshalls that are stationed at certain holes, that would be some coverage and it slowly introduces having "reffs" that can call you on something...having the difficult holes marshaled. It keeps it fair. As for getting a good marshall...that is always a problem in any sport like basketball some reffs suck and some have years and years of experience that make them indispensible. To become a marshall for certain tiers...maybe you can say the requirement can be 3 years of experience is needed for a marshall on a B tier, and so on and so fourth. I am a marshall, my friend that didn't graduate from high school is a marshall, we are not good "reffs". It could take years to become an expert. I don't think this sport has the depth just yet in terms of experience marshalls. Maybe the PDGA can put on special clinics that train people to call foot faults and how to mark your lie and maybe someother things and test them and test them until they are very good and they pass the test. And to be a marshall, the PDGA can offer $0.50 from every player go to the marshalls to spit it up...my city league basketball team has two reffs that are paid $25 per game.

If its an NT event, everyone has to pass an officials exam

 

[scarpfish]

You missed my point entirely. Using the rules of a game (assuming you have indebt knowledge of the rules) to get into the head of another player or gaining an advantage is what I am talking about. Calling foot faults consistantly instead of pulling the person aside, saying you need to watch how your doing this or that or Im calling you on it is big difference.

That's only an issue if the player calling the foot faults is calling bogus foot faults. If the player they are being called on is actually committing them, then that's his problem.

There is a rule book. If some people aren't following the rules because they didn't read it, it is not "getting in someone's head" because they got paired with someone who did read the rulebook, and enforced the rules, as those rules require them to. The foot fault caller only "gained an advantage" because his opponents, through their own apathy, allowed him to.

So read the rules, and follow the rules. If you don't like rules, don't play in competitive events, particularly sanctioned ones.

 

[JC17393]

You missed my point entirely. Using the rules of a game (assuming you have indebt knowledge of the rules) to get into the head of another player or gaining an advantage is what I am talking about. Calling foot faults consistantly instead of pulling the person aside, saying you need to watch how your doing this or that or Im calling you on it is big difference.

Sorry, if we're talking pros here, they should know what the stance rules are and how to follow them. They shouldn't need to be pulled to the side and politely warned. But even if you do decide to take that tack, you're only going to take the polite, pull him aside approach once, no? After that, if they're still committing violations, they rightly deserve to be called out on them, don't they?

At least that's how I'm interpreting you saying "calling foot faults consistently" means. That they're committing repeated faults and getting called on it. If the casual warning and then the first official warning/re-throw don't get through, they deserve every penalty they get.

 

[bradharris]

The rule book still doesn't clarify all the scenarios in which a foot fault or stance call can be made.

Yes it does.

Clarify the jump putt.

It's pretty clear as is. You must have one supporting point on the playing surface at the time of release. Inside the circle, you must maintain balance behind your lie.

How many seconds do you have to show balance. If when the disc settles in basket, when is it really settled? Does every part of your body have to be behind the marker or lie or can you lean over while leaving foot.

It's subjective, but really not hard to enforce. You know a falling putt when you see one. There's no time limit, you can even advance towards the basket before the disc settles provided that you adequately demonstrated balance first.

Whats the deal with over using the unplayable lie rule if your disc rolls into a deep canyon that you can still get too. These are subjective and ultimately gets to be a group decision. But these things are what I see every tournament and it seems every person has a different take on it. Which then confuses everyone even more.

If you can't take a stance within 5 meters of an unplayable lie, it's a penalty. So "unplayable lie" really doesn't benefit the thrower much at all.

 

[Slider]

Many of the same people who play B & C tiers also play A tiers. Significantly increase the cost to play in one just so you can have officials and a lot of those folks will stay home. These are the fish that the sharks (the top pros) depend on being there to make their income. When the effort to correct a small problem creates an even bigger problem, that's not a solution.


Read the red text and then the blue text and then connect the logic. If there is a drop off in attendance, there won't be an everyone to pay for something that is only of use to a select few.

Some of you are going to need to realize that like a lot of other issues with our sport, idealism in rules enforcement becomes cost prohibitive when it approaches reality.

Thanks for the critique = ) It's a discussion that someone is having and that does help in creative thinking for solutions or maybe first the first step is to identify the problem and agree it is a problem then go from there. This is a very diffucult thing issue to solve.

Maybe the problem is "There isn't enough money for touring pros", how do we get that solved? I wouldn't think this is a small problem for touring pros, everyone needs monety to do anything.

One of the big problems I percieve is this self officating aspect of it...how do we make the game more fair and unbiased on who is on the field? I personally think having a self officating sport causes too much drama and in other sports that is solved by professional reffs that know how to be unbiased and are paid to do so...with the exception of corrupt reffs, but that is something else. It was drama when Nikko called a foot faut on Double G...really?

What are the issues? what are the problems? what is our goals?
More money for pros is a goal, how do we accomplish that?
Is self officating a problem? I don't see why anyone would complain about players calling foot faults even if it is to get an unfair advantage when that is the rule of the day...self officate, you should expect drama with that system. You accept it as a fact that he is a prick and will get the advantage when he/she can or you try to come up with a solution that is unbiased instead of having your competition being unbiased.

If it is cost prohibitive, I am sure there are many solutions to this, my city league basketball team each of us paid $150 per player and that was to pay for reffs for the season. These guys aren't rich by any means, but they liked having reffs. It gets rid of drama of me calling a foul on myself or someone else.

 

[grodney]

The rule book still doesn't clarify all the scenarios in which a foot fault or stance call can be made. If when the disc settles in basket, when is it really settled? Whats the deal with over using the unplayable lie rule if your disc rolls into a deep canyon that you can still get too.

Whoa.

There's some question on these things?

I don't even play tournaments and I have no question.

 

[Slider]

If its an NT event, everyone has to pass an officials exam

I know that. I don't make a good reff at all, I have reffed basketball games and I reallly really suck at it. I know the rules for basketball but being a reff is something different. Call on the spot, make quick decisions. My friend that didn't graduate from high school is an offical...he doens't make a good "reff". To be an NBA reff it requires years of experience, you can't go from reffing one year of high school basketball right to the NBA.

 

[JC17393]

The rule book still doesn't clarify all the scenarios in which a foot fault or stance call can be made.

Yes it does. EVERY TIME there's a violation, it should be called.

Clarify the jump putt.

Jump putt doesn't appear in the rules and shouldn't need to.

How many seconds do you have to show balance.

There's no time element involved in balance at all. Either you have balance or you don't.

If when the disc settles in basket, when is it really settled?

When it stops moving.

Does every part of your body have to be behind the marker or lie or can you lean over while leaving foot.

That's an issue? Of course you can lean anywhere you want as long as you're not making contact with anything closer to the target than your marker.

Whats the deal with over using the unplayable lie rule if your disc rolls into a deep canyon that you can still get too.

There is no unplayable lie rule. Assuming you're referring to the optional re-throw rule, how can it ever be overused? The player takes a penalty for using it. They are choosing to take an unnecessary penalty. Why should there be a limit on that?

These are subjective and ultimately gets to be a group decision. But these things are what I see every tournament and it seems every person has a different take on it. Which then confuses everyone even more.

I think a rulebook a mile thick because it has to cover every possible scenario in black and white is going to lead to more confusion than a rule that relies on somewhat subjective interpretation ever would.

 

[Slider]

Right now the PDGA rules are Self-Officiating rules...Maybe they will need new rules if they have "reffs" have marshall rules. Maybe certain holes that have a marshall, the marshall has power to call you out on a rule violation or clarification at the same time the self-officating aspect is still in play...the marshall can call it and clarify it...what he says goes like a reff in any other sport. On the non-marshalled holes the self-officiating rules apply. (thoughts)

self-officiating = expect drama (not everyone makes a good officiator)

 

[dx_roc]

The rule book still doesn't clarify all the scenarios in which a foot fault or stance call can be made. Clarify the jump putt. How many seconds do you have to show balance. If when the disc settles in basket, when is it really settled? Does every part of your body have to be behind the marker or lie or can you lean over while leaving foot. Whats the deal with over using the unplayable lie rule if your disc rolls into a deep canyon that you can still get too. These are subjective and ultimately gets to be a group decision. But these things are what I see every tournament and it seems every person has a different take on it. Which then confuses everyone even more.

You might want to actually read the rule book.

 

[discgman]

The problem is

That's only an issue if the player calling the foot faults is calling bogus foot faults. If the player they are being called on is actually committing them, then that's his problem.

There is a rule book. If some people aren't following the rules because they didn't read it, it is not "getting in someone's head" because they got paired with someone who did read the rulebook, and enforced the rules, as those rules require them to. The foot fault caller only "gained an advantage" because his opponents, through their own apathy, allowed him to.

So read the rules, and follow the rules. If you don't like rules, don't play in competitive events, particularly sanctioned ones.

Everybody who thinks they know the rule book interprets specific rules in their own way. Its easy to say if you don't follow the rules don't play, too easy. You are then assuming that every rule in that book makes sense, which it doesn't and hence why there are issues with pros and rules. I mean if it did their wouldn't be any reason to change the rules. But every year one rule or another is enhanced or changed entirely.

 

[discgman]

Nice

You might want to actually read the rule book.

Way to dig deep into the meat of that paragraph. Give me a break. If I didnt read a rule book, how did I come up with all those instances?

 

[bradharris]

Everybody who thinks they know the rule book interprets specific rules in their own way. Its easy to say if you don't follow the rules don't play, too easy. You are then assuming that every rule in that book makes sense, which it doesn't and hence why there are issues with pros and rules. I mean if it did their wouldn't be any reason to change the rules. But every year one rule or another is enhanced or changed entirely.

There is definitely not a problem with varying interpretations of the rules. Certainly not enough of a problem to warrant all this hubbub. Problems with the rulebook are not what is preventing pros from earning a decent living on tour.

 

[discgman]

Now there a real response besides read the rule book

Right now the PDGA rules are Self-Officiating rules...Maybe they will need new rules if they have "reffs" have marshall rules. Maybe certain holes that have a marshall, the marshall has power to call you out on a rule violation or clarification at the same time the self-officating aspect is still in play...the marshall can call it and clarify it...what he says goes like a reff in any other sport. On the non-marshalled holes the self-officiating rules apply. (thoughts)

self-officiating = expect drama (not everyone makes a good officiator)

:clap:

Look at the Tiger woods penalty at the Masters as a sign of a touring pro of many years who interprets a rule differently or break the rule without fully understanding it.

 

[thruhiker99]

The solution is to put a Marshall on every card that has a Prodigy player on it.

This seems unnecessary. Only need a Marshall on a card with more than one Prodigy player on it.

 

[discgman]

Well...

There is definitely not a problem with varying interpretations of the rules. Certainly not enough of a problem to warrant all this hubbub. Problems with the rulebook are not what is preventing pros from earning a decent living on tour.

Well its not that the rules or how they interpret them themselves is causing pros not to earn a living, but if we are talking about what Barsby is bringing up, then it does take away from the enjoyment of a weekend of golf if there is a constant bickering of the rules by the top group in a division. And it causes further backlash later on.

 

[Slider]

:clap:

Look at the Tiger woods penalty at the Masters as a sign of a touring pro of many years who interprets a rule differently or break the rule without fully understanding it.

I watched that! that was crazy, they have officials that stayed up late to resolve it and determined that he had an additional two strokes added to that hole... this had to be done because their rules state it that a determination has to be made timely. I thought he was on a terror on that round. And the thing about that...Tiger accepted it and moved on, he didn't disagree but commended them on them doing their job.

If you have a marshall, his/her duty will be to watch players feet...most of the people I've played with in tourneys don't watch feet at all and how do you get someone to second that if you are the only one? He just got away with throwing 2 feet away from his marker

 

[Uncle Dougie]

There is definitely not a problem with varying interpretations of the rules. Certainly not enough of a problem to warrant all this hubbub. Problems with the rulebook are not what is preventing pros from earning a decent living on tour.

you'll start to see top pro's making a living at disc golf once Nike and Under Armor start making discs and pumping money into tournaments and live coverage. Then you'll see the disc golf is dead stickers everywhere. opcorn: