The 2017 Memorial Presented by Discraft

[ejvogie]

I thought the footage itself was pretty good. I don't want to put words in anybody's mouth, but I feel like I remember Marty saying a couple years back that he really would prefer to stick with the footage and ambient sound only. I think his rationale was that plenty of others were doing commentary and he liked simply having the round stand alone. As more and more high quality producers come around (he was one of the first for disc golf), it does make it feel like something is missing since everybody else is doing it now.

Personally, I actually am just as good without it. Most of the commentary to me is basic or redundant stuff and after having played for 10 years I don't need to hear it. However, there are talented guys too like CCDG crew, SpinTV crew, Nate, and even Paul/Ricky are pretty good (and that's without any training - they could be even better). It's definitely interesting to hear the players takes on themselves and what they could have done better or their logic on certain shots.

Agreed on the video quality. It looked sharp.

Believe me, I'm the LAST person I expected to actually feel like something was lacking commentary. Maybe Paul and Nate were just so good that it made the next 2 rounds' videos seem dull by comparison

 

[Halcón]

I thought the footage itself was pretty good. I don't want to put words in anybody's mouth, but I feel like I remember Marty saying a couple years back that he really would prefer to stick with the footage and ambient sound only. I think his rationale was that plenty of others were doing commentary and he liked simply having the round stand alone.

Marty's vids are a nice change of pace from what everyone else is doing. (Not knocking the rest - rock on, Ian!)
It's peaceful to just sit back and hear the sounds of the game, as if you were there among the players.

 

[Keller]

Certainly would rather hear nothing than Avery Jenkins!

 

[Dana]

I wonder if McFly will move to 2 camera coverage? It's a heck of a lot quicker and easier to edit the 1 cam coverage, but I feel we miss out on flight/kicks/rolls/etc with the 1 camera.

 

[Streets]

Marty's vids are a nice change of pace from what everyone else is doing. (Not knocking the rest - rock on, Ian!)
It's peaceful to just sit back and hear the sounds of the game, as if you were there among the players.

Yeah but it's usually the sounds of the 5th card where the Prodigy guys usually end up. No one cares about their sounds.

 

[Halcón]

Yeah but it's usually the sounds of the 5th card where the Prodigy guys usually end up. No one cares about their sounds.

You can give it a rest, Streets. We get it.

 

[Royalhghnss]

Covering FPO shouldn't be a business decision, and is certainly not an "altruistic" gift to the women of our sport. It is the right thing to do for growing the diversity in our sport and teaching our children that women's sports matter.

Maybe it shouldn't be a business decision, but it absolutely is, because businesses are doing the work, not the government. Covering MPO barley makes money. Why should we be obligated to cover FPO because we can? The WNBA doesn't get equal coverage compared to the NBA, where's the outrage there? If I only covered FPO, I'd stop filming altogether as I can't afford to lose money spending 18 hour working days away from my family.

Look at the Memorial views. Round 1 and 2 (MPO) have 4x or more views compared to FPO rounds 3 and 4.

At this point covering FPO absolutely is an altruistic gift. This is a business, not a government program.

It's absolutely the nice thing to do, but it's not smart if you're trying to make money (which is the goal of a business).

I thought Jamie's FB post was well written, thoughtful, and brought about some great discussion.

BTW this comes to you from the channel that has more women's DG on it than any other I'd wager, and we're filming FPO at GBO too.

They cranked out those videos fast and they looked great. But I'm surprised Prodigy hasn't gone with some of there own players to do commentary, or found someone outside to do it. I've got to think there are plenty of people up to the task if they could get a chance. It's the only way they're going to get any of their discs mentioned on air, and that sort of thing moves product. I look at Prodigy from a marketing perspective, and see so many things that could be done more effectively.

When Marty started I offered a couple times, but he likes no commentary so that's what we get. Much like I like commentary, so that's what you get

Marty's vids are a nice change of pace from what everyone else is doing. (Not knocking the rest - rock on, Ian!)
It's peaceful to just sit back and hear the sounds of the game, as if you were there among the players.

It's too peaceful IMO, I can't make it through 2 holes without ADDing to something else. The Jomez vids with Paul and Nate flew by in comparison. Obviously I'm biased though, and I do commentary because I like commentary on my DG vids (miss you Cubby and Jimmy). FWIW though I can't think of any major sport with no commentary.

I wonder if McFly will move to 2 camera coverage? It's a heck of a lot quicker and easier to edit the 1 cam coverage, but I feel we miss out on flight/kicks/rolls/etc with the 1 camera.

He had it for a while (his super nice wife Carmen did it) , but she's super busy with all their kids, and starting a business herself.

 

[FlipFlat]

Certainly would rather hear nothing than Avery Jenkins!

This is so true he's a great guy. He has done alot to promote the sport, but he's not the greatest commentator.

 

[JTacoma03]

The rumor has it that Spin thought long and hard about covering the women's side. Why they ultimately decided to, I don't know. Perhaps the dedicated posters saying they were gonna support the women's game made them take them risk and, "do the right thing." Now, they're left holding the bag because the posters who wrote, "we all need to support the women's game," didn't.

I couldn't have said it better myself.

To add to this - I think there's a huge disconnect right now on what "equality" means in sports. In a meritocracy, equality means getting your due based on your merit, or value. There's a loud segment of fans that believe equality means giving the same treatment to two products which hold different market values...and that the cost of providing that same treatment is irrelevant and should be absorbed by vague "sponsors" and "manufacturers" (and the onus to find those sponsors and manufacturers is placed squarely on the media).

On top of that, there's social pressure and fear of being labeled a "sexist" if you don't agree with the latter definition of equality, which in the real world is not equality, but is actually patronizing.

Equality doesn't mean pretending the FPO field is as star-studded, or as competitive, or as popular as MPO. By that logic, any time I say in commentary that "this guy doesn't quite have the power of a Lizotte or McMahon" I would be "bullying" another player because I'm not pretending that everybody is on equal footing. Or same applies when talking about "Ricky range" on putts - it's not belittling others to say that.

Equality means not giving major special treatment to EITHER sex, simply because of their gender. Right now, we are giving preferential treatment to a division comprised of 850-970 rated players because they are females. I've never covered an Intermediate or Advanced division for SpinTV, and I'm not about to start, even though that would be equal based on merit (the ratings average you earn based on playing the same course, which does not take gender into account).

Finally, before somebody completely misreads this, I'm not AT ALL against media coverage for FPO. What I'm feeling is:

1) annoyed by the "equality" argument in disc golf because it's actually being misused, which undermines the real gender-equality struggles in the US in 2017.

2) frustrated by certain FPO players who are creating social media pitchfork mobs instead of reaching out to media producers directly and asking for help in promoting the FPO game. The only player who has ever reached out to me in my 5 years at SpinTV is Zoe Andyke. All of these other "injustices" and "wrongs" that the media supposedly is guilty of enacting upon FPO players? I learn about them when their fans send us vulgar messages. They've made us a public enemy and tried to take hostage everything we're building, without so much as asking beforehand if we can collaborate and do good.

3) conflicted, because I want to be part of the disc golf "generation" that encourages and sees more women play, but I'm at the same time tasked with protecting the US side of SpinTV's business, and FPO Tournament Coverage is a high risk bet right now that I rarely have the budget for. I don't think expanding Tournament Coverage grows the women's game. I think specifically targeted lifestyle and instructional videos do far more good, yet some of the FPO players are advocating that they personally get spotlight for their play, instead of starting a conversation about what types of content will actually grow their fanbase with new members.

 

[Consult20]

I hadn't heard about this until I saw this post from Ricky -- was this widely known?



sockibomb13 What a wild start to the DGPT!

First, we can always count on the Memorial being an enjoyable, well run event and I really look forward to playing this venue. Thought I'd post my thoughts now that I've calmed down a bit from last weekend's unfortunate scoring 'events'. I took a total of FOUR penalty strokes after scores that were correctly called out were mis-recorded on the scorecard. As rare as this is, I was lucky enough to have this happen to me TWICE - in rounds 2 and 4. Although I reviewed the cards and verified the math, I didn't go through and confirm that scores on each hole were recorded correctly. My bad, I guess (does ANYBODY do that?). After building a lead in round 2, this definitely took some wind out of my sails and impacted my play in rounds 3 and 4. Then when I heard it happened AGAIN in the final round – Wow! I actually thought someone was pranking me until I found out that it really did happen again.
I told myself to get over it and move on but was very difficult to focus. Mis-recording of a score not only penalized my score – it penalized my PLAY for the next two rounds. Hoped to finish with a much stronger performance than I did, but focus is key in this game.

Ok – enough of that. On to TEXAS where I'll regain my focus, and hopefully get back some momentum from my earlier wins.

 

[lyleoross]

I hadn't heard about this until I saw this post from Ricky -- was this widely known?



sockibomb13 What a wild start to the DGPT!

First, we can always count on the Memorial being an enjoyable, well run event and I really look forward to playing this venue. Thought I'd post my thoughts now that I've calmed down a bit from last weekend's unfortunate scoring 'events'. I took a total of FOUR penalty strokes after scores that were correctly called out were mis-recorded on the scorecard. As rare as this is, I was lucky enough to have this happen to me TWICE - in rounds 2 and 4. Although I reviewed the cards and verified the math, I didn't go through and confirm that scores on each hole were recorded correctly. My bad, I guess (does ANYBODY do that?). After building a lead in round 2, this definitely took some wind out of my sails and impacted my play in rounds 3 and 4. Then when I heard it happened AGAIN in the final round – Wow! I actually thought someone was pranking me until I found out that it really did happen again.
I told myself to get over it and move on but was very difficult to focus. Mis-recording of a score not only penalized my score – it penalized my PLAY for the next two rounds. Hoped to finish with a much stronger performance than I did, but focus is key in this game.

Ok – enough of that. On to TEXAS where I'll regain my focus, and hopefully get back some momentum from my earlier wins.

Yeah, Paul talked about it. He offered, don't know if he was taken up, to compensate for the lost earnings. He had the card on one of the mis-scores. Feel bad for Ricky, but it does seem odd that this happened and only to him. My impression of what happened wasn't quite what he wrote, but that's hearing second hand. The interview with Paul is on Smash.

Hope Ricky has a good event in Texas.

 

[thruhiker99]

I can't even begin to figure out why, especially at this level, you wouldn't keep your own score (and those of all others on the card too). It's simple enough and then any discrepancies between your card and the official card can be cleared up at the end of each round before the card is signed and turned in.

Maybe I'm missing something but what is the possible negative outcome of doing this? Is it just laziness or sticking to status quo? To me it just seems like lack of professionalism and taking to social media to whine about or shift blame to another party for losing (let's be honest, that's really what his post is all about) just solidifies it.

 

[lyleoross]

I hadn't heard about this until I saw this post from Ricky -- was this widely known?



sockibomb13 What a wild start to the DGPT!

First, we can always count on the Memorial being an enjoyable, well run event and I really look forward to playing this venue. Thought I'd post my thoughts now that I've calmed down a bit from last weekend's unfortunate scoring 'events'. I took a total of FOUR penalty strokes after scores that were correctly called out were mis-recorded on the scorecard. As rare as this is, I was lucky enough to have this happen to me TWICE - in rounds 2 and 4. Although I reviewed the cards and verified the math, I didn't go through and confirm that scores on each hole were recorded correctly. My bad, I guess (does ANYBODY do that?). After building a lead in round 2, this definitely took some wind out of my sails and impacted my play in rounds 3 and 4. Then when I heard it happened AGAIN in the final round – Wow! I actually thought someone was pranking me until I found out that it really did happen again.
I told myself to get over it and move on but was very difficult to focus. Mis-recording of a score not only penalized my score – it penalized my PLAY for the next two rounds. Hoped to finish with a much stronger performance than I did, but focus is key in this game.

Ok – enough of that. On to TEXAS where I'll regain my focus, and hopefully get back some momentum from my earlier wins.

The more I think about this, the weirder it seems.

How did the TD catch the error? If it added up it added up. The score card is the final arbiter.
When I score, and everyone I've played with scores, you call out scores. If you're unsure you ask for a repeat. Then, often enough, but not always, you say what you're recording.

Finally, when an error happens, my fault or not, I tend to watch for it after that. Very strange event.

 

[JoakimBL]

The more I think about this, the weirder it seems.

How did the TD catch the error? If it added up it added up. The score card is the final arbiter.
When I score, and everyone I've played with scores, you call out scores. If you're unsure you ask for a repeat. Then, often enough, but not always, you say what you're recording.

Finally, when an error happens, my fault or not, I tend to watch for it after that. Very strange event.

There where people recording scores for UDisc stats, so that is a possibility. For the first round, I understand the error was spotted during videoediting, and the TD (not allowed to use the video as evidence) confronted the group and they agreed there was an error.

I agree that I don't understand why at this level the players, who are ultimately responsible for turning in a correct scorecard, do not at least keep track of their own score.
This sort of mistake is bound to happen way more than anyone knows, because most cards do not have video recordings and live score updates, and no one will ever find out. And if the player himself notices after the fact, will he say anything that costs him at least to penalty throws?

 

[slowplastic]

I can't even begin to figure out why, especially at this level, you wouldn't keep your own score (and those of all others on the card too). It's simple enough and then any discrepancies between your card and the official card can be cleared up at the end of each round before the card is signed and turned in.

Maybe I'm missing something but what is the possible negative outcome of doing this? Is it just laziness or sticking to status quo? To me it just seems like lack of professionalism and taking to social media to whine about or shift blame to another party for losing (let's be honest, that's really what his post is all about) just solidifies it.

I assumed this was the case? That each player has a card, and fills out scores for themselves plus cardmates...so there should be 4 identical cards with 4 identical scores on each one turned in for each card, other than handwriting differences?

 

[lyleoross]

I assumed this was the case? That each player has a card, and fills out scores for themselves plus cardmates...so there should be 4 identical cards with 4 identical scores on each one turned in for each card, other than handwriting differences?

Paul's comments were basically that each player needs to score their own card and cross reference.

I still think it's weird. There are a couple of scenarios that make it obvious. You shot par and they scored you a bogey. How do you miss that? Or you birdied and they gave you an eagle or ace. How do you miss that? Par for bird is a little more understandable but weird.

 

[bnbanbury]

I wish there was more in Ricky's statement that took some responsibility for this. To answer his question, "does ANYBODY do that?", I have played on a number of AM cards where people were keeping their own score during the round and compare their card to the group card at the rounds conclusion. I go through each hole individually after the round myself. I can't imagine DG being my job and allowing this to happen to me twice in one event. If these guys were PGA golfer signing for the wrong score on a hole they would be going home with nothing.

 

[JC17393]

The more I think about this, the weirder it seems.

How did the TD catch the error? If it added up it added up. The score card is the final arbiter.
When I score, and everyone I've played with scores, you call out scores. If you're unsure you ask for a repeat. Then, often enough, but not always, you say what you're recording.

Finally, when an error happens, my fault or not, I tend to watch for it after that. Very strange event.

The TD caught the error because the online scoring (uDisc) had it correct, and the walking scoreboard had it correct. The only place where it was wrong was on the paper scorecard, which is the official record.

I'm prepared to believe it was just an honest mistake of scorekeeping (both times). Writing down a 3 when it should be a 2 or a 4 when it should be a 3 or mixing up scores between two players or holes, especially if you're dealing with shuffling through 3-4 individual cards instead of just one for the group.

But Ricky has to be more aware of what he's signing for when he checks his card and turns it in. The "who does that?" argument about double checking that scores were recorded correctly is a weak one, IMO. Even if he's not keeping his own score to double check against, he has the online scoring and the scoreboard to use as back-up.

McBeth made the point in his interview that the scoreboard always had it correct so the error wasn't affecting how Ricky was playing in the moment. And if it was, if Ricky was going by what the (incorrect) scorecard said, then he should have realized that the scoreboard was saying something different and caught the error that way. Even at the end of the round, he had to have been aware that he finished X throws behind Paul and Y throws behind Simon, which means he had to have shot a specific score. And the scorecard total didn't match that.

Silly mistake. Sillier that it happened twice in the same event. I would hope he becomes more vigilant so it doesn't happen to him again.

 

[Consult20]

Thanks for the reactions and info about this, I was kind of floored when I saw Ricky's post -- first, because I hadn't heard about it and second, by his comments surrounding what happened. Even though this is the highest level of disc golf, it sure doesn't seem very high level at times like this. :doh:

 

[Consult20]

This is the part I'm really confused about:


"Although I reviewed the cards and verified the math, I didn't go through and confirm that scores on each hole were recorded correctly. My bad, I guess (does ANYBODY do that?)."


So assuming Ricky truly "did the math" correctly, the only way the card could have been messed up is if there were two errors on the card for him, with the two errors offsetting each other (say one score was marked one stroke higher and one score marked lower on different holes) -- and only those errors were for his line on the card, but nobody else? That seems very strange.

I mean on shotgun starts I can see scores getting shifted to the wrong holes for everyone on a card, but this particular scenario, if true, seems bizarre that it would happen once, but twice? Hmmm....