[Innova] The mythical Innova ROC

[bikedoctor]

Going into my second month of this new hobby and I keep hearing about the ROC. Usually in a low respectful tone with everyone nodding their heads in agreement at this sacred flyer. Please educate me.

What is your experience with this disc and what are the different variations (ontario vs classic)? What is your favorite plastic and weigth.

I also can't help but notice Innovas love of R-O-C (CRO, ORC).

Thanks for the education.

Kev.

 

[Three Putt]

Rocs seem confusing, but it's not really all that bad to understand.

The first Roc came out about '87. It was a small diameter 21.2 cm diameter disc based off the XD. In '89 that disc was replaced with the first version of what we consider a Roc today-the 21.7 cm diameter San Marino Roc. This disc quickly became the most popular disc on the market. At the time the Stingray was about as long a disc as you could get, so the Roc was used by many players for almost every shot.

In '94 or '95, something happened to the Roc mold and the disc was replaced with a new version. Innova's mailing address had changed, so the tooling on the new disc said "Ontario." Thus the old disc became the "San Marino" or "Sanny" Roc and the new disc was called the "Ontario" Roc. The Ontario Roc has a higher dome and flips easier than the San Marino's. Because of this they were not very popular and they were replaced in 1997 by the current "Rancho" Roc, so named because Innova moved from Ontario to Rancho Cucamonga and the tooling once again changed. The Rancho Roc is the most overstable Roc yet, and has been hugely popular.

So, there are really only three molds: San Marino, Ontario and Rancho. If you go to the store and buy a DX Roc or a KC Pro Roc, it is a Rancho mold. From most overstable to least overstable they go Rancho-San Marino-Ontario.

When San Marino's and Ontario's were in production, there was only DX plastic. All plastic variations of the Roc such as KC Pro Rocs, Super Rocs and USDGC Roc are Ranchos. The exception are a few collectors USDGC Rocs that have been run in the Ontario and San Marino molds the last two years, but if you don't understand Rocs and you are paying collector USDGC Roc money for a disc...well, you need more help than a post on a message board can give you.

Last year the DX Ontario mold was brought back as a CFR disc. This year they have re-created the DX San Marino Roc in the CFR program and added an Ontario Roc in Star to the CFR program. So you can find some new San Marino's and Ontario's now with tournament stamps. Any Roc you find with he standard factory stamp is still a Rancho. You can still tell the difference by flipping them over and reading the tooling on the underside.

The original 21.2 cm diameter disc came back in '95 as the "Classic Roc." It has the "Roc" name, but it should be considered a completely different unrelated disc to the other Roc's. It is nothing like a Roc.

That's about it. Actually, it is not...but basically that is it.

Edit: This thread came back from the dead, and the saga of the Roc continues. In 2009 they put the recreated San Marino mold into regular production in Star plastic. In 2010 they introduced the Roc+ mold, which features a slanted inner rim. The original PR for it made the Roc+ seem like a disc they were going to sell in Champ and Star, but other than some fundraiser Star's the only plastic I've seen it in is R-Pro.

Edit of the Edit: OK, so... They now have a Star Rancho Roc in Star along with the recreated Star San Marino Roc AND they have a Roc3 mold which they are selling in Champion. So now there are 5 Rocs: Rancho, Roc3, San Marino, Roc+ and Ontario. :\ My original assertion that Rocs were not all that confusing can be freely ignored.

 

[Three Putt]

Oh, you asked about plastic & weight. DX is the best plastic for Rocs, because as they beat in they become super predictable across the whole spectrum of shots. I carry a new DX Roc for slightly overstable shots, a nicely worn in one for straight shots and a beat up one for turnovers. I use weights between 172-175g. A new KC Roc will start out more stable than a DX. I carry one of those but usually I only throw it on windy days. Since I want this disc to be more stable, my KC's are more in the 177-178g range.

 

[nosajeel99]

Wow. I learned a whole heck of a lot in that post. Thanks, Three Putt.

The Roc is my favorite disc because it does exactly what I want. It holds the line on which it is thrown really well for me (anhyzer, hyzer, or straight). It is my most predictable disc and if I had to play an entire round with only one disc, a Roc would be it.

 

[garublador]

Oh, you asked about plastic & weight. DX is the best plastic for Rocs, because as they beat in they become super predictable across the whole spectrum of shots. I carry a new DX Roc for slightly overstable shots, a nicely worn in one for straight shots and a beat up one for turnovers. I use weights between 172-175g. A new KC Roc will start out more stable than a DX. I carry one of those but usually I only throw it on windy days. Since I want this disc to be more stable, my KC's are more in the 177-178g range.

My opinion is that this is very accurate. If you want to get in on the Roc thing just buy a 172-175g DX Roc and use the crap out of it.

 

[bikedoctor]

Thank you....

I bow down to your knowledge.

 

[joshdarkstar]

i can't say anything that hasn't already been said... wow. thanks Three-Putt. i agree with the DX and mid 170's weight range. once your Roc gets worn in nicely there is no disc out there that you can control as well as them. if you can become very skilled with a Roc, you won't need any other disc for shorter courses.

 

[Doktor John]

I'm now motivated to start using the Roc I have and whip it into shape....thanks guys....

 

[bikedoctor]

What have the other disc makers done to replicate the success of the ROC?

Or have other disc's reached the same legendary status but without the spotlight or fame of the ROC?

I just dont hear other people gooing over their other disc's like the ROC. It just seems one sided and odd.

kev

 

[Three Putt]

Disc golf is still very regional, so what discs are big changes from place to place. Most of the discs with a really big following are made by Innova as they have the biggest distribution by far.

Here would be my "Hall of Fame" for golf discs.

Innova Aviar: Easily the best-selling disc of all time.
Gateway Wizard: The longest putter on the market. Sales of this one disc keep Gateway afloat.
Millennium Omega Supersoft:Original "putter" plastic wasn't really all that soft, but the Omega Supersoft set the standard for the floppy, sticky putter plastic that is so popular today.
Innova Roc: See above.
Discraft Buzzz: Finally, a mid-range from Discraft that flies like a Roc. It will hold any line you put on it.
Innova Stingray: Anybody else remember when the Stingray was the Max-D disc on the market? It has evolved from distance driver to turnover mid over the years, but it has remained a useful disc in many players bags over the years.
Innova Viper: People forget that this was the best-selling driver of the 90's. It was the pinnacle of "large diameter" drivers. Big, slow and overtable, it has been replaced by faster, small diameter discs.
Discraft Cyclone: Revolutionary when it was released, it is a fast (well, it was fast at the time) driver that you can shape a variety of lines with. Pros and recreational players could all use this disc for distance drives. Discraft is often accused of "copying" Innova discs, but Innova copied the Cyclone when it released the Gazelle a year later. The Cyclone is still a great fairway driver today.
Millennium Polaris LS: This disc pushed all the technical specs at the time of it's release, and it was released in the upgraded "Millennium" plastic. It proved that disc golfers would pay more for better plastic and started the march toward premium plastics.
Gateway Sabre: Gateway's first disc was a winner. You have to throw it hard to get good results, but it is a super-predictable flyer.
Innova TeeBird: If any other disc has a Roc-like following, it is the TeeBird. It flies long and straight with a predictable fade...It is often called a "longer Roc." Despite all the hype over high-speed drivers, top throwers still use the TeeBird in distance competitions.
Innova Valkyrie: The disc that started the rim wars. After the Valk, every year somebody had a new disc with a bigger rim that supposedly flies faster, farther, better, makes you coffee, etc. Tech standards have put a cap on that, so we will see what the next innovation in discs design will be.
Innova Firebird or Discraft Predator: Everybody loves an overstable pig. These two are the class of that field.

There are a lot of newer discs out there...Wraith, Surge, Destroyer, yada, yada, yada. I'll let the test of time work it out before I put them on this list. One new disc that will be on the list is the
Quest Turbo-Putt: For years, Innova's patent on golf discs allowed them to de facto control the evolution of the golf disc. Discs like the 10M Brick and Turbo Putt signaled a new era in golf disc design and forced the PDGA to tighten the definition of what is a golf disc. Because of that it will impact what we are throwing long after it disappears from the scene.

 

[ERicJ]

Great list

 

[Olorin]

Types of Rocs

Types of Rocs:
-Original Roc - "Wings & Rings", named because of the logo,- flat XD style Roc, made in San Marino
-Classic San Marino Roc - original dome, made in San Marino. The San Marino was more like the Rancho than the Ontario[FONT=&quot][1][/FONT]
-Classic Ontario Roc - slightly more domey, made in Ontario
-New Classic Roc - The Classic Roc is still in limited production and will be available from time to time. It is now in the category of an all-around disc. The two closest discs to it are the XD (not quite as stable) and the Ching Sniper which is a little faster and a little more stable.[FONT=&quot][2][/FONT]
-Proto KC Roc - it has the disc going through the Innova logo and reads "the Choice of Champions."
-After Proto KC Roc - Has a bar through it; it came just after the Proto KC Rocs.
-Original KC Roc - made in Rancho Cucamonga. The first run KC Rocs have a bar going through the Innova logo and reads "Champion Discs."
-KC Roc - made in Rancho Cucamonga. (The number of Xs refers to the number of years that Climo is listed as World Champion. Eg.- 9 times = 9x.)
-Super Roc - made in Rancho Cucamonga. The "Rancho" mold is identical to that of the USDGC Champion Roc, the KC Pro Roc and the staple, DX Roc. The plastic is sleek and grippy like old school Pro Line material. The Super Roc will provide a unique feel and enhanced durability. Sales of these discs will help support the 2004 PDGA World Championships in Iowa.
-Special Edition (SE) Roc - made in Rancho Cucamonga
-Special Edition (SE) Super Roc (178-180g) - made in Rancho Cucamonga
-Champion Edition (CE) Roc - made for the USDGC.
o2001 version is the Rancho, sharper nose (i.e.- not blunt). Most overstable.
o2002- regular blunt nose. Least overstable of the CE Rocs
o2003- is the blunter nose KC 8x mold
o2004 – blunt nose
o2005- the "pre-release" run of 1000 '05s are a remake of the Ontario mold , as are the Special Blends (SBs). Since the SBs were advertised as straighter than the regular '05s, my guess is they're not blunt.[FONT=&quot][3][/FONT]
-Pro Roc (used to be the Super Roc). Available in SE plastic in 2004.
·All of the discs referred to by the city are not of the old style mold. The classic Roc was subsequently produced from the old original mold, or one like it, for those that craved the old disc. The "new" type of Roc has been produced with three different city names on the bottom, first San Marino, then Ontario, and now Rancho Cucamonga.
·The flat XD style Roc (sometimes referred to as the Wings & Rings Roc) and the original dome Roc were made in San Marino. Then came the slightly more domey Ontario Roc. Now Innova has gone back to the flatter dome a la
San Marino Roc, and they are stamped with Rancho Cucamonga and this includes all KC Rocs, Super Rocs, and
the ever sought after Original KC Rocs and Special Edition Rocs. Finally to further complicate things there are some San Marino Rocs (both XD style and domed style) that some refer to as "triple ring Rocs." Look at the under side and in the middle you will see 3 distinct rings.
·Different KC Rocs have different characteristics. The 8x are stable. The 9x are understable.

History of the different kinds of Rocs:[FONT=&quot][4][/FONT]

1) Original Roc 21.2 cm diameter - narrow rim, one of the first discs with a bead, and was basically a beaded version
of the XD. This disc was first released around 1987, and discontinued around 1992.

2) Classic Roc - was a re-release of the original mold and came out around 1995 (I think)

3) New mold Roc - which we have several variations of today - is a 21.7 cm disc and was first released in '88/89.
Basically they beefed up the rim of the original and made it significantly more stable.

3.1) San Marino Early runs were made in San Marino, CA (and are the most sought after - selling for $50+ on eBay). Early runs had the same "wings n rings" stamp as the original mold, and had just a little dome to the flight plate. "A couple runs in '91/92 were super flat and hard - the best rocs they ever made, IMO."
·The San Marino was more like the Rancho than the Ontario. (Dave D.)[FONT=&quot][5][/FONT]

3.2) Ontario Manufacturing was moved to Ontario, CA and a new mold was produced around 1994/95. These runs tended to be just a little domier in general than most San Marino's - but were still awesome straight flyers.

3.3) Rancho Cucamonga Rocs. The Rancho Cucamonga Rocs were yet another version/mold of the same disc - and early runs had retained the shape of those early 90's runs of San Marino's Hard and Flat and very stable.

3.4) KC Rocs The onset of the KC plastic has produced a number of variations of the new style Roc (I think all Rancho mold's - with a slightly different plastic) I can't really speak to the quality or flight variations of the Ranchos/ or KC's as I haven't gotten through my stack of San Marino's yet

3.5) Pro (SE) Rocs in 2004. The Pro Roc should be available Mar 2004. The Pro Roc is overstable in tests. Pro Rocs were made from the standard DX Rancho mold, which is the more stable version.[FONT=&quot][6][/FONT] The "Rancho" mold is identical to that of the USDGC Champion Roc, the KC Pro Roc and the staple, DX Roc. The plastic is sleek and grippy like old school Pro Line material. The Super Roc will provide a unique feel and enhanced durability. Sales of these discs will help support the 2004 PDGA World Championships in Iowa.
See https://zonedriven.com/catalog/product_info.php/products_id/239

·With the proto-Rancho and the proto-KC Roc; there is a difference between the two. The proto-Rancho was made in heavier weights only and had an Innova choice of champions rainbow stamp, the disc came in white only and has a disc through the logo. The proto KC is similar but has an enormous nipple that actually indents the top of the disc (exactly like the 8 time KC Roc). The logo was also similar but there are differences there as well. The Innova stamp doesn't say choice of champions and is a bar through the logo and not a disc. (from Joyup Lee)

USDGC Rocs
2003 more stable than 2002. (Dave D., 3/5/03)

2006:
·The "Star" Rocs are likely to be pretty hot for several reasons. They look and feel great. This is also the true "first run" of Star Rocs since Innova created the line. Star Rocs are stable (not overstable) like the Special Blend. They fly straighter and hold an incredible line.
·Star Rocs are pretty much the standard "Rancho" mold.
·Special Blend is more the "Ontario-style" mold, making them less stable than regular Champion or Glow. Special Blend Rocs should also prove popular as this is quite likely the final run of Special Blend discs. These, like the Star Rocs, are pretty straight flyers. Both gold and silver Special Blend Rocs are available. They are flippin' sweet.
·Regular Champion and Glow are all overstable pigs. If you prefer a meat hook, here you go.
·There was only one, truly clear disc. It weighs 180 and has a ghost "Eye Roc" stamp. Its whereabouts shall remain unknown at this time.

The numbers referenced refer to post #s on the PDGA Discussion Board.

[FONT=&quot][1][/FONT] Dave Dunipace, #136649 - 02/02/04 08:46 AM

[FONT=&quot][2][/FONT] Dave. D.

[FONT=&quot][3][/FONT] CE Roc info mostly from Felix Sung but collected from Dave D's info

[FONT=&quot][4][/FONT] From Craig Gangloff on February 21, 2001

[FONT=&quot][5][/FONT] #136649 - 02/02/04 08:46 AM

[FONT=&quot][6][/FONT] Dave Dunipace, #149626 - 03/03/04 05:59 PM

 

[Olorin]

See Roc City

 

[Olorin]

Champion Roc Collector

[FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]2001 ZoneDriven Stamped "Clear" Innova CE Roc[/FONT]
[FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Official Collector Guide & Registry[/FONT]

 

[shirfan]

Every thread about Rocs ends up reading like The Silmarillion.

Shark posts are so much easier... "they fly great, try one".

 

[tomjulio]

Shark posts are so much easier... "they fly great, try one".

...was thinking the exact same thing.

 

[PhattD]

Types of Rocs:
-Original Roc - "Wings & Rings", named because of the logo,- flat XD style Roc, made in San Marino
-Classic San Marino Roc - original dome, made in San Marino. The San Marino was more like the Rancho than the Ontario[FONT=&quot][1][/FONT]
-Classic Ontario Roc - slightly more domey, made in Ontario
-New Classic Roc - The Classic Roc is still in limited production and will be available from time to time. It is now in the category of an all-around disc. The two closest discs to it are the XD (not quite as stable) and the Ching Sniper which is a little faster and a little more stable.[FONT=&quot][2][/FONT]
-Proto KC Roc - it has the disc going through the Innova logo and reads "the Choice of Champions."
-After Proto KC Roc - Has a bar through it; it came just after the Proto KC Rocs.
-Original KC Roc - made in Rancho Cucamonga. The first run KC Rocs have a bar going through the Innova logo and reads "Champion Discs."
-KC Roc - made in Rancho Cucamonga. (The number of Xs refers to the number of years that Climo is listed as World Champion. Eg.- 9 times = 9x.)
-Super Roc - made in Rancho Cucamonga. The "Rancho" mold is identical to that of the USDGC Champion Roc, the KC Pro Roc and the staple, DX Roc. The plastic is sleek and grippy like old school Pro Line material. The Super Roc will provide a unique feel and enhanced durability. Sales of these discs will help support the 2004 PDGA World Championships in Iowa.
-Special Edition (SE) Roc - made in Rancho Cucamonga
-Special Edition (SE) Super Roc (178-180g) - made in Rancho Cucamonga
-Champion Edition (CE) Roc - made for the USDGC.
o2001 version is the Rancho, sharper nose (i.e.- not blunt). Most overstable.
o2002- regular blunt nose. Least overstable of the CE Rocs
o2003- is the blunter nose KC 8x mold
o2004 – blunt nose
o2005- the "pre-release" run of 1000 '05s are a remake of the Ontario mold , as are the Special Blends (SBs). Since the SBs were advertised as straighter than the regular '05s, my guess is they're not blunt.[FONT=&quot][3][/FONT]
-Pro Roc (used to be the Super Roc). Available in SE plastic in 2004.
·All of the discs referred to by the city are not of the old style mold. The classic Roc was subsequently produced from the old original mold, or one like it, for those that craved the old disc. The "new" type of Roc has been produced with three different city names on the bottom, first San Marino, then Ontario, and now Rancho Cucamonga.
·The flat XD style Roc (sometimes referred to as the Wings & Rings Roc) and the original dome Roc were made in San Marino. Then came the slightly more domey Ontario Roc. Now Innova has gone back to the flatter dome a la
San Marino Roc, and they are stamped with Rancho Cucamonga and this includes all KC Rocs, Super Rocs, and
the ever sought after Original KC Rocs and Special Edition Rocs. Finally to further complicate things there are some San Marino Rocs (both XD style and domed style) that some refer to as "triple ring Rocs." Look at the under side and in the middle you will see 3 distinct rings.
·Different KC Rocs have different characteristics. The 8x are stable. The 9x are understable.

History of the different kinds of Rocs:[FONT=&quot][4][/FONT]

1) Original Roc 21.2 cm diameter - narrow rim, one of the first discs with a bead, and was basically a beaded version
of the XD. This disc was first released around 1987, and discontinued around 1992.

2) Classic Roc - was a re-release of the original mold and came out around 1995 (I think)

3) New mold Roc - which we have several variations of today - is a 21.7 cm disc and was first released in '88/89.
Basically they beefed up the rim of the original and made it significantly more stable.

3.1) San Marino Early runs were made in San Marino, CA (and are the most sought after - selling for $50+ on eBay). Early runs had the same "wings n rings" stamp as the original mold, and had just a little dome to the flight plate. "A couple runs in '91/92 were super flat and hard - the best rocs they ever made, IMO."
·The San Marino was more like the Rancho than the Ontario. (Dave D.)[FONT=&quot][5][/FONT]

3.2) Ontario Manufacturing was moved to Ontario, CA and a new mold was produced around 1994/95. These runs tended to be just a little domier in general than most San Marino's - but were still awesome straight flyers.

3.3) Rancho Cucamonga Rocs. The Rancho Cucamonga Rocs were yet another version/mold of the same disc - and early runs had retained the shape of those early 90's runs of San Marino's Hard and Flat and very stable.

3.4) KC Rocs The onset of the KC plastic has produced a number of variations of the new style Roc (I think all Rancho mold's - with a slightly different plastic) I can't really speak to the quality or flight variations of the Ranchos/ or KC's as I haven't gotten through my stack of San Marino's yet

3.5) Pro (SE) Rocs in 2004. The Pro Roc should be available Mar 2004. The Pro Roc is overstable in tests. Pro Rocs were made from the standard DX Rancho mold, which is the more stable version.[FONT=&quot][6][/FONT] The "Rancho" mold is identical to that of the USDGC Champion Roc, the KC Pro Roc and the staple, DX Roc. The plastic is sleek and grippy like old school Pro Line material. The Super Roc will provide a unique feel and enhanced durability. Sales of these discs will help support the 2004 PDGA World Championships in Iowa.
See https://zonedriven.com/catalog/product_info.php/products_id/239

·With the proto-Rancho and the proto-KC Roc; there is a difference between the two. The proto-Rancho was made in heavier weights only and had an Innova choice of champions rainbow stamp, the disc came in white only and has a disc through the logo. The proto KC is similar but has an enormous nipple that actually indents the top of the disc (exactly like the 8 time KC Roc). The logo was also similar but there are differences there as well. The Innova stamp doesn't say choice of champions and is a bar through the logo and not a disc. (from Joyup Lee)

USDGC Rocs
2003 more stable than 2002. (Dave D., 3/5/03)

2006:
·The "Star" Rocs are likely to be pretty hot for several reasons. They look and feel great. This is also the true "first run" of Star Rocs since Innova created the line. Star Rocs are stable (not overstable) like the Special Blend. They fly straighter and hold an incredible line.
·Star Rocs are pretty much the standard "Rancho" mold.
·Special Blend is more the "Ontario-style" mold, making them less stable than regular Champion or Glow. Special Blend Rocs should also prove popular as this is quite likely the final run of Special Blend discs. These, like the Star Rocs, are pretty straight flyers. Both gold and silver Special Blend Rocs are available. They are flippin' sweet.
·Regular Champion and Glow are all overstable pigs. If you prefer a meat hook, here you go.
·There was only one, truly clear disc. It weighs 180 and has a ghost "Eye Roc" stamp. Its whereabouts shall remain unknown at this time.

The numbers referenced refer to post #s on the PDGA Discussion Board.

[FONT=&quot][1][/FONT] Dave Dunipace, #136649 - 02/02/04 08:46 AM

[FONT=&quot][2][/FONT] Dave. D.

[FONT=&quot][3][/FONT] CE Roc info mostly from Felix Sung but collected from Dave D's info

[FONT=&quot][4][/FONT] From Craig Gangloff on February 21, 2001

[FONT=&quot][5][/FONT] #136649 - 02/02/04 08:46 AM

[FONT=&quot][6][/FONT] Dave Dunipace, #149626 - 03/03/04 05:59 PM

This is why I don't use roc. This is also why I prefer discraft. I'm old and this is ay too complicated lol.

 

[Three Putt]

Lotsa good info there.

One thing kinda confused me...people often talk about "made in San Marino." I was eavesdropping on a bunch of guys talking to Dave Dunipace at the KC Wide Open one year, and he said there was no "San Marino" plant. He said in the early days they had molds and bid out work to other injection molding facilities in LA. The discs said "San Marino" because that is where the P.O. Box he opened to receive business mail was. According to what I heard back then, Innova did not make their own discs until they opened the Ontario shop.

A lot of the "San Marino" Rocs were made at the Ontario plant, and a lot of the "Ontario" Rocs were made at the Rancho Cucamonga plant because they did not change the underside engraving on the disc when they moved. The Aviar engraving said "San Marino" during the entire time they had the Ontario plant and for about the first 10 years they we using the Rancho Cucamonga plant.

So the location on the underside really only tells you where Innova was located when that mold piece was created. The location on the Millennium Sentinel for years said "San Marino" even though it was introduced two or three years after Innova moved to Rancho Cucamonga. It uses the same core piece as the Stingray, and the Stingray mold was created before the Ontario plant opened. That piece wore out a few years ago, and the disc now just has www.innovadiscs.com on the underside

One of the enduring myths is the story that the San Marino Roc had to be re-tooled because the mold broke during the move to the Ontario plant, but the truth is that the mold was used at the Ontario plant for several years. It wore out from all the runs made of it and had to be replaced.

 

[Olorin]

Threeputt- That's some interesting scoop to add to the saga.

 

[Olorin]

Every thread about Rocs ends up reading like The Silmarillion.

Some of us like the Silmarillion. But not everyone can be a Maia.

-Mithrandir

P.S.- After Frodo destroyed the ring it was really a Roc, not an eagle, that saved him and Sam.