Spit-outs. Flaw, or part of the game?

[zenbot]

Maybe we should start building courses indoors to elimiinate those random gusts of wind.

Ah! We already have a thread about that!

 

[bergdawg]

look, guys, nobody is saying every pole hole is the same. But i you hit the same pole hole in the same way it will behave in the same way. Why is this hard to understand? The only thing I can think of is that you feel entitled to make putts.

If you really want to call yourself competitive disc golfers act like it. Ball golf pros scout greens before every tourney. How about you do the same? Scout em out, see how each pole hole reacts. How would you react if a ball golfer advocated for a standardized astroturf green for every hole? It would be ridiculous. Green speeds vary, so do baskets. Be a real pro and continue to improve.

This kind of issue really highlights how young a sport we really are. We have a base level of talent running around calling themselves pros because we live in a small pond right now. If actually gifted athletes played this sport it would be different. If kids grew up dreaming of PDGA championships instead of world series titles we would have real professionals, not whiners who feel like changing the course to suit their shortcomings.

Preach it, brutha. Cyclones 4 Lyfe!

 

[discspeed]

It's a matter of opinion. There is no right or wrong. Get that through your head.

There are several good opinions that have merit in this discussion, but saying there is no such thing as a good putt spitting through is just wrong. People can have opinions, but the truth is the more experienced people here usually have better ones. Expertise is gained through hours spent on an activity. The more time you spend on something, the more complex it becomes. As I said before, many here are not seeing those complexities, but that certainly does not mean they don't exist.

 

[zenbot]

so the people with true skill are the best?

Given time isn't that the case anyway? If Pro A has a higher percentage of spit outs than Pro B who would you say is the better player?

Yes, there are one offs but I don't think Kenny is 12x because his opponents just got unlucky a lot.

 

[whiz]

Some people will argue that a "perfect putt" is not actually perfect if it does not stay in the basket. While this is true from one perspective, in order to be fair there should be a putt that if thrown to the same spot on the basket at the same speed should always stay in. I have found, similar to Feldberg and Climo, that a pitch putt that is falling into the basket just above the nubs stays in most often. However, I have had putts are thrown softly (correct speed imo) and hit against the ring that the bottoms of the chains are secured to, and bounce out. This, to me, is an example of a perfect putt that will not always stay in. Even soft putts, when thrown higher, will occasionally split the chains or hit the pole and bounce out.

For those arguing that there is not a problem please describe to me the perfect putt/putter that will always stay in the chains. I do not believe that there is such a thing. This being the case, luck is a factor as a small percentage of the time two identically (or as close as can be measured) thrown putts will not both end up in the basket when thrown on the right line.

Gulfcoastgolfer, please describe for us the putter/putting style you use that will end up in the basket every time when thrown on the correct putting line/speed. I don't believe such a putt exists, which is why this is a problem.

My belief is that disc golf should be a game of skill, not luck.


As a side note, does anyone know what kind of baskets were used at Genesee Valley for AM Worlds this year? They were the best catching baskets I have ever putted at. Three sets of chains ftw.

 

[Triflusal]

Ball golf pros scout greens before every tourney. How about you do the same? Scout em out, see how each pole hole reacts. How would you react if a ball golfer advocated for a standardized astroturf green for every hole? It would be ridiculous. Green speeds vary, so do baskets. Be a real pro and continue to improve.

this isnt really a good analogy, greens are better compared to the area around a basket, and there are uphill, downhill, OB, water behind the basket, etc. greens in disc golf. most certainly not standardized. but hole size and depth in golf is, whereas baskets are not.

 

[whiz]

Discspeed, and most other pros if you ask them, will agree that basket design could and should be improved in order to reduce spit outs that cannot be controlled (and only somewhat reduced percentage-wise) by the player.

 

[Dave242]

I know this won't be a popular opinion, but as much as they may frustrate people, they're part of the game, just like any other sport that has some element of luck or chance.

Plenty of ball golfers putt too hard and it lips out or skips out,

I stopped reading here and maybe someone has already made these points that expound on these points.

1) Football (and Rugby) uses an oblong ball whose bounce can go any which way very often deciding the outcome of the game. Not only is this "luck" accepted.......football is the most popular sport in the US!
If you do not want the random bounces to determine the outcome of the game, don't let the ball hit the ground!

2) Golf already has this sort randomness built in. You have got to consider the surface of the putting greens to be a part of the target as it is a physical part of the "holing out apparatus" (lame term, but you get the point) that the course owners control and every player has to navigate.
It is often random in ways that are imperceptible. I cannot count the times imperceptible randomness in the putting surfaces cause the path of the putt to flummox even the TV commentators who are sitting at the same green all day long and see tons of puts from the same area. When faced with this, players shake their heads and move on.

Bottom line in my mind: Some baskets are better at catching than others and I like the better baskets more. But if you are an experienced player, you know the weak spots in the chains where spit-outs and cut-throughs happen......so do not put your putt into those areas if you want to increase your odds of scoring well.

 

[zenbot]

Fast forward 10 years: 5 layers of chains

 

[jmhoekst]

Which side of this argument you are one tends to be strongly influenced by:
1. Tournament/high stakes experience...Those that play for high stakes almost always support better baskets. If you are an avid spectator of the game and watch a lot of pro tournaments you can understand this without actually being in those situations yourself.
2. Your own putting ability and playing experience in general. You must be a very skilled putter yourself or have spent a lot of time with really good putting pros to understand the difference between a bad putt and a spitout.

Those are kind of intertwined, but my whole point is I believe most of the "part of the game" camp have experienced very little of the things I listed above. The more time you spend either getting really good yourself or spending time around really good players the more you understand the lack of fairness in true spitouts and what a letdown they are for competitors and spectators alike.

I respectfully disagree. I am a competitive disc golfer. I live to play tournaments and want to be the best. However, I'm on the "it's part of the game" side.
Just this year, I was in a playoff for 1st place in Adv at a C-tier. My competitor banged a sweet 50-footer for bird after I parked the hole. I then proceed to tap out my 20' putt for bird to move on, but instead it blew through the back of the basket and I lost the playoff.
As upset as I was, it wasn't at the basket. It was at myself for putting too hard and not just landing the putt in the basket. I relied too much on the chains to catch the disc, and not enough on myself to land it in the basket.
Having said that, just as others have already said, there's a lot that lies in the hands of which baskets you putt on most often. My home course has awful, old Mach-II baskets that have gaps so big in the chains you can hit solid pole w/o touching a chain. Needless to say, there are a LOT of spit-outs and blow-throughs. Having learned the game on this course, my putts are as soft as they need to be to get to the basket. This is how I learned. It's sad to see people play this course for the first time and scratch their heads at how many "perfect putts" don't stick. If they didn't throw lasers, they would.
One other point. There's a reason you see a lot of pros putt nose-down when they are in gimme-range. A nose-down putt will hit the pole, then jump down into the basket. This greatly reduces bounce-outs and blow-throughs.

 

[bergdawg]

How many of you have had a 4 foot putt bounce out on you? Don't make the basket better, make the putter better.

 

[MNcyclone]

this isnt really a good analogy, greens are better compared to the area around a basket, and there are uphill, downhill, OB, water behind the basket, etc. greens in disc golf. most certainly not standardized. but hole size and depth in golf is, whereas baskets are not.

I think it is the perfect analogy. The green has characteristics that act on a ball after it has been putted. The ground around a basket does not do this. Instead it is the chains that act on a disc after a putt. Each basket can be stiff or loose. Each green can be fast or slow. Each basket can catch fast or slow better. Each green receives balls better or worse.

 

[GulfCoastGolfer]

Some people will argue that a "perfect putt" is not actually perfect if it does not stay in the basket. While this is true from one perspective, in order to be fair there should be a putt that if thrown to the same spot on the basket at the same speed should always stay in. I have found, similar to Feldberg and Climo, that a pitch putt that is falling into the basket just above the nubs stays in most often. However, I have had putts are thrown softly (correct speed imo) and hit against the ring that the bottoms of the chains are secured to, and bounce out. This, to me, is an example of a perfect putt that will not always stay in. Even soft putts, when thrown higher, will occasionally split the chains or hit the pole and bounce out.

For those arguing that there is not a problem please describe to me the perfect putt/putter that will always stay in the chains. I do not believe that there is such a thing. This being the case, luck is a factor as a small percentage of the time two identically (or as close as can be measured) thrown putts will not both end up in the basket when thrown on the right line.

Gulfcoastgolfer, please describe for us the putter/putting style you use that will end up in the basket every time when thrown on the correct putting line/speed. I don't believe such a putt exists, which is why this is a problem.

My belief is that disc golf should be a game of skill, not luck.


As a side note, does anyone know what kind of baskets were used at Genesee Valley for AM Worlds this year? They were the best catching baskets I have ever putted at. Three sets of chains ftw.

I have had "spitouts" before, I never claimed that they don't exist. I just voted that they are "part of the game that should be accepted."

 

[discspeed]

look, guys, nobody is saying every pole hole is the same. But i you hit the same pole hole in the same way it will behave in the same way. Why is this hard to understand? The only thing I can think of is that you feel entitled to make putts.

I tried to break it down for you...If you used high speed cameras and recorded putting footage you would see that the disc does different things every time it hits the chains in a very random way. This is because whatever angle you are looking at the basket from, you are at a unique angle to the chain configuration. Ideally you would probably want to be square so that your disc hit the two outside chains first in a symmetrical way with the edge of your putter and then pin the inside chain against the pole with just enough force to have it stick. Or maybe you want to be just off-center so the spin of your disc takes it into position. There is some perfect way in this equation, but you don't get to choose the angle of the chain configuration that you putt at.

So putting the same every time is impossible because you do not have the same look nor any way to measure exactly how to hit the chains ideally in your 30 seconds to avoid the spit.

I feel like I'm arguing for evolution with creationists...And with that I'm out. Not because I wouldn't like to continue, but because doubles starts in 45 minutes!

 

[whiz]

The ball golf green is not a good analogy. You can compare the green to things that effect the disc BEFORE getting to the basket but to compare the basket to the green is a false analogy. The basket is analogous to the hole in ball golf.

 

[MNcyclone]

Another thing I would like to add is that just because you did not perceive the cause does not make an event random.

 

[MNcyclone]

The ball golf green is not a good analogy. You can compare the green to things that effect the disc BEFORE getting to the basket but to compare the basket to the green is a false analogy. The basket is analogous to the hole in ball golf.

The basket is analogous to the hole, the chains are to the green.

 

[zenbot]

I tried to break it down for you...If you used high speed cameras and recorded putting footage you would see that the disc does different things every time it hits the chains in a very random way. This is because whatever angle you are looking at the basket from, you are at a unique angle to the chain configuration. Ideally you would probably want to be square so that your disc hit the two outside chains first in a symmetrical way with the edge of your putter and then pin the inside chain against the pole with just enough force to have it stick. Or maybe you want to be just off-center so the spin of your disc takes it into position. There is some perfect way in this equation, but you don't get to choose the angle of the chain configuration that you putt at.

So putting the same every time is impossible because you do not have the same look nor any way to measure exactly how to hit the chains ideally in your 30 seconds to avoid the spit.

I feel like I'm arguing for evolution with creationists...And with that I'm out. Not because I wouldn't like to continue, but because doubles starts in 45 minutes!

Good luck. Hopefully none of your putts unfairly spit out.

 

[Tragic]

Wow what a heated subject makes for good laughs at work. Don't matter the basket your throwing at the object is to have it go in, so do that however you choose and move on to the next hole.

 

[bergdawg]

I tried to break it down for you...If you used high speed cameras and recorded putting footage you would see that the disc does different things every time it hits the chains in a very random way. This is because whatever angle you are looking at the basket from, you are at a unique angle to the chain configuration. Ideally you would probably want to be square so that your disc hit the two outside chains first in a symmetrical way with the edge of your putter and then pin the inside chain against the pole with just enough force to have it stick. Or maybe you want to be just off-center so the spin of your disc takes it into position. There is some perfect way in this equation, but you don't get to choose the angle of the chain configuration that you putt at.

So putting the same every time is impossible because you do not have the same look nor any way to measure exactly how to hit the chains ideally in your 30 seconds to avoid the spit.

I feel like I'm arguing for evolution with creationists...And with that I'm out. Not because I wouldn't like to continue, but because doubles starts in 45 minutes!

YOu're splitting hairs. They'll react close enough to cause the same outcome every time.