Constant rule violations?!?

[geoloseth]

Am I missing something? The last few tournament videos I've watched all have some of the top pros still using discs with either manufacturer or retailer stickers on them. I know it really wouldn't make a difference to anything, but last I checked anything that added noticeable thickness on a disc would cause that disc to be illegal and result in penalty strokes every time it's used.

Is no one calling them on this, or do they get a break because they're top pros? which would then lead to the scenario of people calling into the PDGA and revealing rule violations after the fact and possibly causing stroke penalties and/or disqualifications (ala a few recent PGA tournaments). But that's another can of worms.

 

[Dan Ensor]

Part of the manufacturing process. Legal.

 

[geoloseth]

I wouldn't consider a sticker as part of the manufacturing process. Just like the flashing on discs isn't intended, but is a by product of the molding process.

I'm guessing they don't include stickers on the discs they send in for pdga approval.

 

[Dan Ensor]

You don't have to remove flashing to be pdga legal either.

Retailer stickers are not legal. I'm doubting the stickers in question are retailer stickers, though.

 

[coupe]

last I checked anything that added noticeable thickness on a disc would cause that disc to be illegal and result in penalty strokes every time it's used..

You might want to check the rule regarding discs used in play again:

A disc which has been modified after production such that its original flight characteristics have been altered is illegal, excepting wear from usage during play and the moderate sanding of discs to smooth molding imperfections or scrapes. Discs excessively sanded or painted with a material of detectable thickness are illegal. [emphasis mine]

It's doubtful that a retailer sticker alters the original flight characteristics in any meaningful way, and I doubt mfgs or retailers stickers are painted on discs.

 

[geoloseth]

Ok, that being said and manufacturer stickers being legal, what about the ones that clearly aren't? I.e. 'PIAS stickers' that have been clearly visible in some of these videos?

 

[coupe]

Ok, that being said and manufacturer stickers being legal, what about the ones that clearly aren't? I.e. 'PIAS stickers' that have been clearly visible in some of these videos?

:wall:

A disc which has been modified after production such that its original flight characteristics have been altered is illegal, excepting wear from usage during play and the moderate sanding of discs to smooth molding imperfections or scrapes. Discs excessively sanded or painted with a material of detectable thickness

are illegal. [emphasis mine[/

Are PIAS stickers painted on the discs?

 

[prerube]

wow. if stickers are your biggest concern, I can't wait to play on your card

 

[New013]

if you called me on a sticker being on my disc i'd take a disc out of your bag and chuck it as far as i could so you would have something legitimate to be pissy about.

 

[Horsman]

Hes propbably the guy who carries a scale in his bag so that he can weight his opponenets discs to make sure that no one is cheating by having too heavy of a disc.

 

[Thumber]

I leaver the stickers on to give me that overstability edge. Sure its a bit cheaty but I really want to win

/endsarcasm

 

[geoloseth]

Wow, less than a dozen posts to get the sarcasm rolling. I did find the answers I was looking for from an old Chuck Kennedy thread. In case anyone else was curious, any stickers added to a disc (other than those applied by the manufacturer) are deemed illegal by the PDGA and the Tech standards committee. Even the stickers that aren't 'painted' on.

 

[prerube]

Wow, less than a dozen posts to get the sarcasm rolling. I did find the answers I was looking for from an old Chuck Kennedy thread. In case anyone else was curious, any stickers added to a disc (other than those applied by the manufacturer) are deemed illegal by the PDGA and the Tech standards committee. Even the stickers that aren't 'painted' on.

but a discraft sticker is legal. If you are petty enough to call someone on a marshall street sticker or PIAS tag then you have to evaluate your own game.

 

[Thumber]

but a discraft sticker is legal. If you are petty enough to call someone on a marshall street sticker or PIAS tag then you have to evaluate your own game.

Heavy on the petty

 

[coupe]

Wow, less than a dozen posts to get the sarcasm rolling. I did find the answers I was looking for from an old Chuck Kennedy thread. In case anyone else was curious, any stickers added to a disc (other than those applied by the manufacturer) are deemed illegal by the PDGA and the Tech standards committee. Even the stickers that aren't 'painted' on.

The operative phrase being "old ... thread."

Given that:

1) 801.02.B explicitly prohibits only painted on material of detectable thickness;

2) The 2013 edition of the PDGA Rules represents a significant rewrite of the 2011 revision. While most of the significant changes are structural in nature, there are some new concepts being introduced as well as minor to moderate changes to actual rules. No major changes to the rules of play have been made; and

3) the 2013 Rulebook eliminates the long-standing requirement that discs in play be "uniquely marked with ink or pigment-based marking with no detectable thickness" (which appeared in the Rulebook as recently as 2011 and dated back to at least to the 1990 Rulebook) from 801.02.F,

in the absence of a "Nostra culpa" by the RC and the BOD and a formal ruling by the Rules Committee explicitly prohibiting the use of stickers on discs, it must be presumed that the purpose of the change to 801.02.F was to permit the placement of stickers on discs, and that previous opinions on the legality or illegality of stickers have been rendered null and void.

 

[Dan Ensor]

It's doubtful that a retailer sticker alters the original flight characteristics in any meaningful way, and I doubt mfgs or retailers stickers are painted on discs.

Where does it say "in a meaningful way"? It's doubtful that retailer stickers have 0 effect on the flight characteristics of a disc.

 

[geoloseth]

Here's a quote from Chuck Kennedy taken from another thread from May of this year.

"The rules refer to the PDGA Technical standards which has your answer. If the manufacturer put the weight sticker on there, it's legal. Price stickers put on by retailer are not legal and must be removed for sanctioned play. See bottom two paragraphs on first page:*PDGA Tech Standards"

Does leaving the non-mfg stickers on a disc make it better - probably not. But that doesn't make it any less of a rule from the PDGA. Players on the PGA tour have been penalized because the wind moved their ball after they addressed their lie. It doesn't matter how insignificant or trivial a rule is, if it's put down as a rule then it should be enforced.

 

[BogeyNoMore]

pffft

 

[mashnut]

To me it's a little like holding in football. Most of the linemen in the NFL hold on just about every play. There's a threshold where officials start calling it when they get a meaningful advantage from it. The NFL rulebook doesn't say that it matters how bad the holding is, it's a black and white rule that's enforced in a way that's open to interpretation. Our equipment has a pretty huge variation inherently just because none of our major manufacturers are big enough to dictate plastic blends or to be doing all their molding in temperature, humidity and dust controlled environments. The variation added by a PIAS sticker is far smaller that added by just about any factor that makes one disc of the same mold come out differently than another.

I think there's a difference between this type of equipment standard and the actual rules of play. I'm very much in favor of consistent rules enforcement on things like stance violations. I just don't think that things like stickers or using various methods to slightly change the dome of a disc are what we need to focus on when our equipment isn't that consistent in the first place.

 

[Jimb]

I'm not focusing on this kind of violation, but where does the grey area begin and/or end? If it's in the rules enforce it. How difficult or stressful is it to remove a sticker from your disc? Just do it and be done with it.

Someone might say, when being called on a stance violation: "I was only 2" to the side of my mini when I released my approach. What's the big deal?" Frankly, that 2" probably didn't make any difference in the throw. But if you let one foul go, where does it end?

I'm not saying I'd call someone on a disc with a sticker on it, or for a 2" stance violation... bit if I did call someone on it I'd be clearly within the official rules of the PDGA sanctioned game in doing so.