The Kinetic Sequence

[HyzerUniBomber]

Just to make sure we're crystal clear, are you saying the "issue" in pic above of Danny is that he is rotating and accelerating the disc forward before the rear foot de-weights? Not fully settling first and therefore not getting the late boom? Asking not to pick on Danny but to make sure I know what we are talking about.

It's more than just de-weighting. Yes, he isn't de-weighted, but he hasn't made a lateral move from the back foot to the front foot. He may have zero pounds registering on a scale under his back foot, but look at where the back foot is vs where Wiggins's foot is.

This isn't isolated just they way David throws, this is the way big D guys throw.

That's the effect of resisting the lateral move and catching your momentum. So now the body has this momentum - and you are resisting the handle of the whip (your leading shoulder). Out pops the extension arc and the levers release the momentum.

 

[slowplastic]

I'm excited to try this, I think I can feel it. With the amount of snow it will be a bit of a wait though.

But as for feel when walking through it, does it sound right that I feel like my rear knee is within inches of my front knee/leg as I'm starting the outward swing from the classic "power pocket" position? And through the hit/extension my left heel feels like it is moving upward and like my rear shin is almost facing the ground?

I feel like I can stay much more closed this way through arm extension/outward swing as well.

I really don't like "power pocket" anymore as a teaching term.

 

[HyzerUniBomber]

It's moving that direction through the extension - but at the center chest it's technically not inches away. It'll feel very different and mashy (like you're mashing your thighs together).

 

[slowplastic]

It's moving that direction through the extension - but at the center chest it's technically not inches away. It'll feel very different and mashy (like you're mashing your thighs together).

Yeah mashy sounds about right, or how SW always says legs get tangled together. Feel isn't what shows up on video. So I guess I'll keep being aware of this and see how it goes once I can actually throw some discs.

 

[sidewinder22]

I'm excited to try this, I think I can feel it. With the amount of snow it will be a bit of a wait though.

But as for feel when walking through it, does it sound right that I feel like my rear knee is within inches of my front knee/leg as I'm starting the outward swing from the classic "power pocket" position? And through the hit/extension my left heel feels like it is moving upward and like my rear shin is almost facing the ground?

I feel like I can stay much more closed this way through arm extension/outward swing as well.

I really don't like "power pocket" anymore as a teaching term.

That is the correct feel, the rear femur rotates forward underneath the pelvis and shin rotates facing down/heel up foot eversion from the instep driving everything from the ground up and blocking the lower spine upright on the braced front femur creating internal torque or squeeze between the thighs to the torso/arm/disc. It's like riding a twirling bucking bull and holding upright on to the bull by squeezing the trailing leg into the bull or your front side.


What you see below in red is the guy being thrown off the bull with the legs separating and spine tipping over as the lower spine sways back out away from the target/front side, the front side posture has collapsed. You should be getting more upright into the finish extending the front side angles to whip the arm/disc through.

 

[sidewinder22]

On the left is landing behind the front hip and extending behind the front hip, the front shoulder gets jacked up into the ear instead of releasing forward over the hip with forward compression of the chest toward the knees.

On the left is landing/collapsing over the front hip, the front shoulder has nothing to leverage against on the front side, but the rear foot still on the ground:

 

[slowplastic]

The way Drew Gibson's rear foot moves after it leaves the ground makes sense with what I'm feeling finally. Any time something is closer to what he does that's a good sign.

I see what you mean by that upward arrow too, rather than just the heel leaving the ground.

 

[mizunodave]

Can you connect the dots a little more for me about how we resist the handle of the whip (the leading shoulder)?

From a standstill I can spin my shoulders open as fast as I can and see that the arm and therefore disc don't go too fast, they're just being dragged along no faster than the shoulders can open.
When I use my core muscles to try to stop my shoulders from opening (approximately in line with the target) my arm and therefore disc snap through must faster. I resisted the handle of the whip and allowed it to snap better.

Just using my core muscles to hold my shoulders closed doesn't really work through a full x-step throw.

As soon as I plant, kinda leaning back and driving all my weight into my plant foot like a skier my shoulders just spin open.

What drill or thought process should I be working on to resist that so the disc can slide into the power pocket and let the elbow snap open and eject the disc?

 

[sidewinder22]

The way Drew Gibson's rear foot moves after it leaves the ground makes sense with what I'm feeling finally. Any time something is closer to what he does that's a good sign.

Just don't hyperextend the front knee like he does sometimes aka Tiger Woods Leg Snap.

A specific move in Woods' golf swing wasn't doing him any good, either. Just past impact with longer clubs, Woods regularly snapped his left knee into hyperextension. Woods considered the move a key source of distance, and as a small-boned person of 6-feet-2--who still has a 29½-inch waist and weighs 178 pounds--it was an important one as he competed against bigger men like Singh, Els and Mickelson. In his book How I Play Golf, Woods writes that he would exaggerate the move "when I need an extra 20 yards."
https://www.golfdigest.com/story/jaime_diaz_truthabouttiger_gd0501

 

[HyzerUniBomber]

I can see how it sounds like I'm say resisting the shoulders from rotating, but it is resisting by the fact that the shoulder is rotating away from the extension. You're not trying to slow the shoulder down, but because the shoulder is going backwards it pulls the handle of the whip back.

Check the position of the lead shoulder in these frames.

 

[slowplastic]

Can you connect the dots a little more for me about how we resist the handle of the whip (the leading shoulder)?

From a standstill I can spin my shoulders open as fast as I can and see that the arm and therefore disc don't go too fast, they're just being dragged along no faster than the shoulders can open.
When I use my core muscles to try to stop my shoulders from opening (approximately in line with the target) my arm and therefore disc snap through must faster. I resisted the handle of the whip and allowed it to snap better.

Just using my core muscles to hold my shoulders closed doesn't really work through a full x-step throw.

As soon as I plant, kinda leaning back and driving all my weight into my plant foot like a skier my shoulders just spin open.

What drill or thought process should I be working on to resist that so the disc can slide into the power pocket and let the elbow snap open and eject the disc?

With anything in form, don't try to force something to happen that isn't happening. If your balance is right, and your sequence is right, it will happen. If your balance isn't right then that's the first thing to fix.

Like as of tonight I'm feeling my shoulders/torso stay way more closed when my arm whips out, just taking swings indoors with something heavy. I'm certainly not telling my body to stop my torso, I'm just in good balance and letting my back leg counterbalance myself more which enables my shoulder to swing out. Then when I go back to my normal/old way...wow it feels slow in comparison.

Being leaned back doesn't help, you just spin freely and early around the plant leg. Got to be in balance on top of the leg, and use your left side and butt to counterbalance your arm opening up.

 

[sidewinder22]

Right, and note that all this stuff is more natural on hyzer swing plane with upward trajectory.

Front shoulder should be closed when you start extending the lower arm, and leverage/extend the swing forward from the rear side swimming back behind you and blocking the body forward into the brace. With the Wall Hit Drill your shoulders stay closed because you ain't moving the immoveable wall forward like when pushing a 150-175g disc forward away from your center.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZlyD1ynQrh4&t=3m25s

 

[sidewinder22]

I think just speaks to how different if feels when you pull off that Wiggins/Eagle level lateral move. And then, it's just obscene how effortless the disc booms out.

I'm always amazed how Eagle gets his rear side to smash forward without hopping more upright, and crouching into such wide stance although he is so lanky with tiny torso so it's probably much easier for him to move his featherweight mass. Although it does appear like he puts a lot more effort into it than players that appear more effortless with the hop and drop more upright on the front leg.

 

[axion]

I wish any of this made sense to me. I would kill to have a backhand like the Jarvis brothers. It looks like their is so little effort involved.

 

[sidewinder22]

Some rambling...

Awesome description of basically what happens in the hop and throw from 17-20min in pbs link, total body tendon bounce and piston compression action. You exhale going into the hop, then inhale airborne(I often stick my tongue out a la Jordan) and everything is totally relaxed and free wheeling and falling while airborne and the pelvis is free to pivot back while moving or gliding over the rear leg without breaking stride/slowing down and then you load back forward leveraged into the rear leg/foot resisting collapsing and spring into the plant exhaling and compressing against the ground.
http://www.pbs.org/wnet/nature/equus-story-of-the-horse-episode-1-origins/17063/

It is the rear foot plantar flexion tendon bounce/recoil that throws the rear leg forward after accelerating your center of gravity/pelvis. There is no bounce when you let your posture collapse and are flat footed/dorsiflexed/pushing off the heel and trying to extend the slower rear knee and hip. You need to be resisting the rear leg collapsing posture and spring off the flexed foot. If you try to lean back or are turned back early and load, then you can't spring forward dynamically centered, but you can tip or throw the upper body back over top the front side and leave your weight back on the rear foot.





The front foot plants plantar flexed and then suddenly drops the heel crushing the can and trapping the tendon bounce and ground reaction force transfers that elastic energy up the body and out to the arm/disc instead of the foot perpetuating the hop.

 

[charmees]

Do I understand correctly that the rear foot turns inward because of the brace? So I do not have to actively try to turn hips/knee inwards?

Also any tips to disable disc/hand moving forward before rear foot comes off ground? My disc starts to move due to my front foot landing already, but the rear foot is not yet off the ground.

 

[Mocheez]

Do I understand correctly that the rear foot turns inward because of the brace? So I do not have to actively try to turn hips/knee inwards?

Also any tips to disable disc/hand moving forward before rear foot comes off ground? My disc starts to move due to my front foot landing already, but the rear foot is not yet off the ground.

I think there should be some active turn of the rear hip/femur but you have to find the right balance so you don't feel any drag from the rear leg or resistance of the upper body.

If you keep your torso turned back and rotate your rear leg/ knee towards the target, it will feel like your rear hip/femur is pushing your torso forward. If you keep your rear hip/femur loose and turn your torso towards the target, you will feel your rear leg dragging behind you.

You want to find the right balance so that the rear leg and torso are working together. It will feel like there is a ball bearing between the torso and rear hip and they are countering in unison.

 

[sidewinder22]

Do I understand correctly that the rear foot turns inward because of the brace? So I do not have to actively try to turn hips/knee inwards?

Also any tips to disable disc/hand moving forward before rear foot comes off ground? My disc starts to move due to my front foot landing already, but the rear foot is not yet off the ground.

The rear foot/heel will roll inward and evert from the weight leaving it as you drive it forward from the ground through the foot. Your rear foot should feel like Swivel Chair Drill when you push your weight forward and weight leaves the foot, then the foot/leg is free to rotate or swivel your pelvis on a braced front leg.



You are striding too staggered around/outside/away from your rear foot, and not landing upright balanced on your front leg - you end up behind it/right of foot like below. Stride straighter inline to target, so your foot is always underneath your head. Kick the Can so your front leg strides slightly inward/right across the rear foot, so you have internal torque through your hips/cocked and athletic for when you land. When you stride outside like you are doing, you undo any torque between the hips, and end with a totally non-athletic movement/stance.

 

[sidewinder22]

The Linear Kinematic Sequence

"It is known that there is an efficient sequence of motion in a skilled golf swing called the Kinematic Sequence. It describes the proximal-to-distal sequencing of the rotation speeds of the body segments. Each body segment; pelvis, ribcage and arm sequentially accelerates and decelerates before impact, starting from the inner large body segments; the pelvis and ribcage, then progressing to the smaller outer segments; the arms, hands and club. Each successive segment peaks faster and later than the previous segment. This action causes the club to accelerate rapidly and reach its highest speed at impact. Figure 1 shows the graph of the rotational Kinematic Sequence of a world class golfer and includes images of his position at each peak speed point in the downswing.

It is also known that the golf swing is not only rotational; it has a linear component of motion as well. Therefore it would make sense that there is also a linear kinematic sequence during the downswing, and in fact there is. Figure 2 shows the linear Kinematic Sequence graph of a world class golfer. It shows the linear speed of his lead hip, lead shoulder, mid-hands and club head.

Look in the shaded gray area of Figure 2 and notice how, during the downswing, the lead hip accelerates (goes up) and reaches its peak speed first, then decelerates (goes down), followed by the lead shoulder, the mid-hands and finally the club. Notice that these accelerations and decelerations are all before impact and that the only segment that doesn't decelerate prior to impact is the club head. As we would expect, the club head accelerates during the downswing and reaches max speed at impact. Notice that each successive peak speed occurs later in the downswing than the previous one and is faster than the previous one.

In fact, it is not as important what the speeds of the joints are at impact but what their maximum speeds are earlier in the downswing. We expect their speeds at impact to be lower because of the deceleration phase of each joint as it passes energy to the next segment - each joint is slowed down by the interaction force of the next segment accelerating against it. Take for example the mid-hands curve. You see that its highest speed is 22.6 mph and its speed at impact is 19 mph. For the mid-hands curve, the deceleration is related to the explosiveness of the release. The faster the release of the wrists the more the deceleration and the slower the hands will be at impact. It is a nice example of the action-reaction law of motion; the force of the club releasing causes and opposite force on the hands causing the lead arm to slow down. This means that measuring hand speed at impact may be misleading. It's better to know what the peak hand speed was earlier in the downswing. From our research at TPI we have compiled a tour pro database and from this database, we have found that the average peak mid-hands speed in the downswing is 22.0 mph and the average mid-hands speed at impact is 17.6 mph."
© Phil Cheetham
https://www.mytpi.com/articles/biomechanics/the_linear_kinematic_sequence

Comments:
"Great job Phil In the linear swing the hips job is to swivel to accomidate the levers which produce most of the power in this swing, so yes there is rotation its just not the main force."
Glenn Deck(PGA Top 100 Instructor) 3/25/2014 11:49 PM

"Rotational is secondary to the linear component (per Mike Austin)"
Anonymous User 3/20/2014 2:06 PM

 

[sidewinder22]

How To Evaluate A Golf Swing - The Right Way!
Tue Oct 23, 2012 by Lance Gill

First Determine Efficiency, Then Style:
At the Titleist Performance Institute we are fortunate to have more 3D biomechanical data on the best players in the world than anyone else in the industry. By studying their data, along with amateur golfers that participate in our programs, we are able to gather information that gives us an insight into how to effectively work with each golfer as an individual and not use a standard approach for all golfers.

Using several 3D applications we are able to film at over 500 frames per second and track the speed, direction and sequence the body is moving during the golf swing. When merging the findings from this technology with a comprehensive physical evaluation that is performed on each player, we can determine why each golf swing is as unique as their finger print. We can also determine what makes their swing efficient or inefficient, regardless of their style. This provides us as the coach and the student with a quantum leap in learning as our research is based on fact not theory.

It has been common practice in golf instruction to compare a student to a swing of a tour professional and then point out the faults of that individual based on that model. This approach can certainly be used to point out the differences in style's between two individuals, but it does not explain why one is more efficient than the other. I have seen some amateurs and tour professionals that have the worst styles you have ever seen but are very efficient golfers. Using our technology we can show you hundreds of golf swings that are winning money on tour every week, but will break any and every model or method ever put in print.

If I showed you the sequence of movement under 3D of Ernie Els, Davis Love, Vijay Singh, Jim Furyk, Ray Floyd and John Daly you would have a difficult time seeing any difference at all. The way they use their body's to get the club from the top of the backswing to impact is almost identical yet there styles are totally unique and different.

We have discovered a unique signature that all great players have regardless of their individual styles. This signature is known in the biomechanics world as the Kinematic Sequence. For simplicity sake we will break the swing into four simple segments.

Lower body, Torso/Trunk, Arms/Hands, and Club. On the best ball strikers in the world these segments work like a synchronized whip on the downswing, and as a result create an efficient repetitive swing. The average amateur golfer has one or more of these segments out of position and as a result has to manipulate the club in order to make contact with the ball. This results in a loss of speed and accuracy and an inefficient motion.

As stated earlier, the information we get from our 3D system is then compared to the physical evaluation and short game evaluation of each participant to come up with their individualized program of success. We feel this is the best way to get to the bottom of the problem, if there is one, and start the player on the road to success.

https://www.mytpi.com/articles/biomechanics/how_to_evaluate_a_golf_swing_-_the_right_way

In the beginning you can see the 4 different "style points" going into the backswing:


From the bottom of the backswing to the finish, it's easier to see the same meat and potatoes: