The Kinetic Sequence

[sidewinder22]

Take note of how far the rear foot has gone forward before the elbow starts bending in #5. The swing lags back through a taut upper arm, arm/disc starts forward really SLOW from heavy momentum created on the disc after all weight has shifted forward and coils into the braced front side and then suddenly whips out forward.

Most Ams start rotating and accelerating the disc forward before the rear foot de-weights.

 

[HyzerUniBomber]

It really reinforces the idea that it's a lateral move, re: the baseball video.

 

[sisyphus]

I'm not a super technique oriented guy (mostly play for fun and exercise, but am starting to appreciate these details), but every now and then, I take a peek at what you guys share. That may be the best single summary image (all then frames in one package) of the backhand technique I've ever seen.

:clap: Thank you for creating and sharing it. It's saved to the desktop.

Now I have no excuse when I wonder why I don't generate more clean distance!

 

[ALT-J]

Take note of how far the rear foot has gone forward before the elbow starts bending in #5. The swing lags back through a taut upper arm, arm/disc starts forward really SLOW from heavy momentum created on the disc after all weight has shifted forward and coils into the braced front side and then suddenly whips out forward.

Most Ams start rotating and accelerating the disc forward before the rear foot de-weights.

For me it's the horse stance that makes me wanna rotate and accelerate before the shift. The feeling is really the same that you described in the last sentence. Fast rotation without feeling any weight. It could be a deceiving feeling. The rotation and in the worst case your xstep momentum/speed throws you instead of the disc.

Your first sentence describes the feeling of my best one leg throws. It feels very very different and weird compared to the rotation oriented throw. Less movement and more resistance. Like a catapult resists the sling by counterweight.

 

[VLaForce2002]

Thank both for the static sequence, but also the gif. If you ever update the gif, it seems you might drop the disc sooner to match the static sequence.
I will be referencing both of these resources many, many times. Thank you again.

 

[sidewinder22]

Thank both for the static sequence, but also the gif. If you ever update the gif, it seems you might drop the disc sooner to match the static sequence.
I will be referencing both of these resources many, many times. Thank you again.

The gif is actually from the Slow Motion Drill, you can see in the side by side how things blend more together in real motion vs more separated sequence when performed in slow motion:

 

[Lumberjack504]

It really reinforces the idea that it's a lateral move, re: the baseball video.

For sure, it doesn't look like David is really rotating until the hit point. I used to try to rotate INTO the hit point. Which is horribly wrong, of course.

I've had the pleasure of playing with David a couple times. Super nice and humble guy, and just an absolute natural. He'd throw a putter on some holes where I reached for a Thunderbird...

 

[sidewinder22]

It really reinforces the idea that it's a lateral move, re: the baseball video.

For reference:

 

[HyzerUniBomber]

I don't typically like to think of my swing in terms of discrete movements, but I think it's worth evaluating if it's worth doing in this case.

After all of this discussion, my current think on the backswing is that it has two primary motions.

1. The "lateral move" - which happens between frame 1 and 6.
- The term lateral in this case can be boiled down to a sideways slide, coming in butt first which culminates in the player fully posted up on the front side and the disc loaded into the center chest.

What I find so helpful about seeing frames like this is that it directly addresses an incredibly common problem: players trying to do what Lumberjack says: "I used to try to rotate INTO the hit point."

The point of this first move is take momentum into the one leg drill. This motion doesn't need to be fast, and in fact, is profoundly powerful even with limited speed. Speed in this move is actually problematic as it's harder to control, and if we recall from the baseball videos (paraphrasing) the shoulders will be SLOWING DOWN - through the opening rotation, so that the momentum shifts into the arm.

I want to unpack that thought more, because it's meaningful to me: If a bat, club, arm is being accelerated and the shoulders maintain speed throughout, the the bat/club/arm will just be dragged behind the shoulder. During the extension, we're transferring that momentum that we trapped with the lateral move into this system - but to accelerate the thing, we have move the momentum down the arm by resisting the handle of the whip. (which leads me into what I'd call the 2nd motions)

2. The second motion is really Frame 6, 7, 8 - that shoulder barely moves as he resists the forward momentum and lets the whip extend forward. For my thought process, I try to maintain a controlled balance very similar to KJ Nybo - the back foot can reset on the ground similar to a baseball swing. I try to keep the arc feeling forward mounted and my chin up (my never ending battle with buried chin). Lastly I keep the lats engaged to resist upper arm compression, but the forearm loose.

It's been great to see all this stuff unfold here - as I'm always working on my co-workers form (and my own) and I was watching him do a 1-leg drill / 1-step drill and throw 20% further than when he added his x-step. As I was across a road, I could see the whole motion collapsing into the Lumberjack "rotate INTO the hit point" issue and he'd be unable to maintain balance and lacked resistance.

Once we broke it down into two discrete motions: massive improvements.

 

[RFrance]

This morning SW mentioned the swim move in Plasticsnapsauce' Form Analysis (https://www.dgcoursereview.com/forums/showpost.php?p=3413298&postcount=143http://) and I watched through the Swedish Badfish video again and it finally made sense to me. The swim counters the shoulder rotation https://youtu.be/9HssJQD1rRo?t=384. I tried it on the course this morning and this was a significant breakthrough for me. Farther and straighter with less effort. A lot of good postings, videos, and discussions going on here lately!

 

[RFrance]

Baseball cross arm drill to resist rotation and lock in the front side https://youtu.be/uTc7gRO91V0?t=322. Is this similar to swim move but just reversed for baseball?

 

[Lumberjack504]

I don't typically like to think of my swing in terms of discrete movements, but I think it's worth evaluating if it's worth doing in this case.

After all of this discussion, my current think on the backswing is that it has two primary motions.

1. The "lateral move" - which happens between frame 1 and 6.
- The term lateral in this case can be boiled down to a sideways slide, coming in butt first which culminates in the player fully posted up on the front side and the disc loaded into the center chest.

What I find so helpful about seeing frames like this is that it directly addresses an incredibly common problem: players trying to do what Lumberjack says: "I used to try to rotate INTO the hit point."

The point of this first move is take momentum into the one leg drill. This motion doesn't need to be fast, and in fact, is profoundly powerful even with limited speed. Speed in this move is actually problematic as it's harder to control, and if we recall from the baseball videos (paraphrasing) the shoulders will be SLOWING DOWN - through the opening rotation, so that the momentum shifts into the arm.

I want to unpack that thought more, because it's meaningful to me: If a bat, club, arm is being accelerated and the shoulders maintain speed throughout, the the bat/club/arm will just be dragged behind the shoulder. During the extension, we're transferring that momentum that we trapped with the lateral move into this system - but to accelerate the thing, we have move the momentum down the arm by resisting the handle of the whip. (which leads me into what I'd call the 2nd motions)

2. The second motion is really Frame 6, 7, 8 - that shoulder barely moves as he resists the forward momentum and lets the whip extend forward. For my thought process, I try to maintain a controlled balance very similar to KJ Nybo - the back foot can reset on the ground similar to a baseball swing. I try to keep the arc feeling forward mounted and my chin up (my never ending battle with buried chin). Lastly I keep the lats engaged to resist upper arm compression, but the forearm loose.

It's been great to see all this stuff unfold here - as I'm always working on my co-workers form (and my own) and I was watching him do a 1-leg drill / 1-step drill and throw 20% further than when he added his x-step. As I was across a road, I could see the whole motion collapsing into the Lumberjack "rotate INTO the hit point" issue and he'd be unable to maintain balance and lacked resistance.

Once we broke it down into two discrete motions: massive improvements.

I've been sidelined for about a month due to some elbow tendinitis, but it's kind of been nice to reflect and read. I've thought a lot about using the ground and creating leverage, and SW's battering ram analogy and your "throw a brick to feel brace" ideas are straight cash money. Just think a bout smashing through a door with your lead shoulder and things seem to fall into place. It's shown me how lateral everything really is and how to lead with your weight/use the ground. Rear leg counter just slides forward and just happens. We'll see once I get out to the field if it translates. I've also done some dry runs with the pendulum backswing, feels a lot more natural and seems to go hand in hand with the battering ram. Excited to heal up and get some footage and sling some plastic.

 

[slowplastic]

Baseball cross arm drill to resist rotation and lock in the front side https://youtu.be/uTc7gRO91V0?t=322. Is this similar to swim move but just reversed for baseball?

Interesting. That feels like FH swim move to me. So many people take left elbow in RHFH and pull it behind their back as they plant to "rotate into the hit" like in BH...feeling like yanking the left arm behind will supercharge rotation. But it has to counter the right arm release instead. In reality you pull your left elbow to your torso or left hip to set up the equivalent of the FH swim move.

I'm going to try that drill for my baseball swing though, I know I try to whip my left shoulder and arm to really pull the bat handle and my swing uses almost no right arm.

 

[sidewinder22]

Baseball cross arm drill to resist rotation and lock in the front side https://youtu.be/uTc7gRO91V0?t=322. Is this similar to swim move but just reversed for baseball?

Yep, lot of good stuff in there. I had actually thought about doing a drill throwing discs with both hands BH simultaneously. I think it's a good forehand drill too, getting rid of that chicken wing Jaeger talks about.

This is one of my favorite vids showcasing all the different styles but the same basic technique. I love the side by side of Avery and Markus and then Linus: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vhQzVIX4cVs&t=25s

Note in the right side how Avery's hand stays in place and whips, leveraging/swimming the rest of the body and swing forward.

 

[HyzerUniBomber]

Baseball cross arm drill to resist rotation and lock in the front side https://youtu.be/uTc7gRO91V0?t=322. Is this similar to swim move but just reversed for baseball?

this is outside my understanding, because I have a hard time understanding the difference here between where and how the bat is leveraged two handed VS the disc one handed in the extension arc.

I do think that the variation between the off-arm swim move and the forward punch is pretty drastic, specifically because the swim move seems to slow the shoulder rotation (good thing) while a forward punch will often time over-open the shoulder and collapse the frame.

Plus, the swim move or the Simon Lizotte Straight Arm (SLSA) (who doesn't love a good acronym? DFP, OLD, anyone??) can really emphasize the feeling of the lateral move - like it's slotting into the back hip and driving your body forward.

I'd also like to share that my "feeling" when I make a good lateral move with the back foot really tracking forward a 12" before I get to the center chest position is that I'm too late:

That I've lagged TOO much, which I think just speaks to how different if feels when you pull off that Wiggins/Eagle level lateral move. And then, it's just obscene how effortless the disc booms out. It is my mental equivalent of long toss when that baseball dude is throwing across a football field through the uprights with a baseball! You simply can't do that muscling up, you have to max out the momentum catch and loose arm redirection.

 

[slowplastic]

I'd also like to share that my "feeling" when I make a good lateral move with the back foot really tracking forward a 12" before I get to the center chest position is that I'm too late:

That I've lagged TOO much, which I think just speaks to how different if feels when you pull off that Wiggins/Eagle level lateral move. And then, it's just obscene how effortless the disc booms out.

Interesting, I've never felt that or even let myself try to feel that. Now that I'm understanding how to be on the front leg and how my rear leg leaves the ground in full leverage, I'll experiment.

When the snow is gone...

 

[sidewinder22]

I'd also like to share that my "feeling" when I make a good lateral move with the back foot really tracking forward a 12" before I get to the center chest position is that I'm too late:

That I've lagged TOO much, which I think just speaks to how different if feels when you pull off that Wiggins/Eagle level lateral move. And then, it's just obscene how effortless the disc booms out. It is my mental equivalent of long toss when that baseball dude is throwing across a football field through the uprights with a baseball! You simply can't do that muscling up, you have to max out the momentum catch and loose arm redirection.

Exactly - to throw further you have to loosen up(remaining taut and balanced) and make the swing longer like Long Toss Drill (LTD) or Perpetually Longer Swing Drill (PLSD).

What many Ams really struggle with is the mental aspect or hurdle or discipline it takes to wait for the energy to build on the front side and not trying to spin the disc or body. It feels like waiting forever and really slow and not powerful, compared to strong arming which feels really tight and fast and powerful. You almost have to not care about distance or creating power or spin, and really take a leap of faith to letting the physics happen which most Ams just aren't willing to do or trust. This is why when people have big form breakthroughs it's often mind blowing to them.

If you compare the frame by frame timing of most Ams to Wiggins there, the Ams have already released the disc by frame #5 because they accelerated so fast out of the gate.

 

[HyzerUniBomber]

... I'm so glad to hear you say that. I have was throwing a polecat with my buddy, and I'd go "doh, too late!" and then boom!

"oh, I guess it wasn't too late!" and truthfully it didn't feel like it was fast because of that slowness.

I don't think that it's that am's or even many pros that I've watched don't trust it, I think there is just almost no real discussion about it outside these very small circles.

I know Danny is very aware of most big ticket items, and has a big platform - and I appreciate his work - and I think he's not aware of this issue. That screen cap is the exact issue that we see as the #1 issue that'll max you at 400'-420'. I just watched the duel video he did with the other guy, and Danny is still doing this. (Not trying to pick on Danny, just that he's a form guy - and this speaks to the issue that it's so invasive)

I've been aware of this, but not really how much impact it has until this last year. Now the lightbulb is on and it's the main thing I see when I look at the form greats: Simon, Wiggins, Jarvis, etc. "Damn, look at that shift and settle..." It reminds me of when I first realized how much power was in just the hit, and how much less herky-jerky I had to deal with - but now I'm getting another round of more power and less herky-jerky because the damn thing moves so slow.

Anyways, good to chat with everybody. Hope all are well - I quit facebook a while back and I've unistalled Instagram at the moment. Not sure I can pull the trigger on the full quit, but I really hate Facebook.

 

[RFrance]

Exactly - to throw further you have to loosen up(remaining taut and balanced) and make the swing longer like Long Toss Drill (LTD) or Perpetually Longer Swing Drill (PLSD).

What many Ams really struggle with is the mental aspect or hurdle or discipline it takes to wait for the energy to build on the front side and not trying to spin the disc or body. It feels like waiting forever and really slow and not powerful, compared to strong arming which feels really tight and fast and powerful. You almost have to not care about distance or creating power or spin, and really take a leap of faith to letting the physics happen which most Ams just aren't willing to do or trust. This is why when people have big form breakthroughs it's often mind blowing to them.

If you compare the frame by frame timing of most Ams to Wiggins there, the Ams have already released the disc by frame #5 because they accelerated so fast out of the gate.

This is just what I needed to hear and start to work on.

 

[deyo7]

... I'm so glad to hear you say that. I have was throwing a polecat with my buddy, and I'd go "doh, too late!" and then boom!

"oh, I guess it wasn't too late!" and truthfully it didn't feel like it was fast because of that slowness.

I don't think that it's that am's or even many pros that I've watched don't trust it, I think there is just almost no real discussion about it outside these very small circles.

I know Danny is very aware of most big ticket items, and has a big platform - and I appreciate his work - and I think he's not aware of this issue. That screen cap is the exact issue that we see as the #1 issue that'll max you at 400'-420'. I just watched the duel video he did with the other guy, and Danny is still doing this. (Not trying to pick on Danny, just that he's a form guy - and this speaks to the issue that it's so invasive)

I've been aware of this, but not really how much impact it has until this last year. Now the lightbulb is on and it's the main thing I see when I look at the form greats: Simon, Wiggins, Jarvis, etc. "Damn, look at that shift and settle..." It reminds me of when I first realized how much power was in just the hit, and how much less herky-jerky I had to deal with - but now I'm getting another round of more power and less herky-jerky because the damn thing moves so slow.

Anyways, good to chat with everybody. Hope all are well - I quit facebook a while back and I've unistalled Instagram at the moment. Not sure I can pull the trigger on the full quit, but I really hate Facebook.

Just to make sure we're crystal clear, are you saying the "issue" in pic above of Danny is that he is rotating and accelerating the disc forward before the rear foot de-weights? Not fully settling first and therefore not getting the late boom? Asking not to pick on Danny but to make sure I know what we are talking about.