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Hey hey ho ho round ratings have got to GO!

As I understand it abnormally bad rounds are dropped from ratings calculations, whereas abnormally good rounds are included. Do you think some ratings inflation is due to this practice?

One potential test for that would be to look at the number of excluded rounds over time for some tranche of players. If that increase over time it suggests that their rating is staying falsely inflated by not accounting for their bad rounds.
 
As I understand it abnormally bad rounds are dropped from ratings calculations, whereas abnormally good rounds are included. Do you think some ratings inflation is due to this practice?
No such thing as an abnormally good round because it was actually thrown by the player attempting to throw well. However, players can deliberately throw abnormally poor rounds to abnormally lower their rating. The system is specifically designed to measure a player's normal skill as a means to prevent players from bagging into a lower division. We can't judge whether a player has deliberately thrown an abnormally thrown a bad round or given up trying to throw a good round or maybe running for aces. But we can statistically establish a cut-off point for each player where the odds are slim that a player was still trying to play well when posting a poor score.

So, "no" I don't see where the dropping abnormal rounds has a long-term inflationary effect. If anything, it prevents deflation by maintaining the integrity in that player's rating when used as a propagator. If propagators were underrated by including abnormally poor rounds in their rating that have no limit to their "badness", they would not be contributing their appropriate amount of rating points to future event SSA calculations. The cumulative result would be to gradually "steal" rating points from the total pool of rating points available in a round when they average scores better than their abnormally low rating.
 
As I understand it abnormally bad rounds are dropped from ratings calculations, whereas abnormally good rounds are included. Do you think some ratings inflation is due to this practice?

I don't see how anyone would disagree that "removing low numbers from a data pool causes the avg data in the pool to increase". Granted...like Chuck said the overall effect on ratings in this case would be small. However....if you look at the big picture from the items discussed in this thread... seems like there's a few things that could subtly impact ratings positively over a long period of time.
 
I don't see how anyone would disagree that "removing low numbers from a data pool causes the avg data in the pool to increase". Granted...like Chuck said the overall effect on ratings in this case would be small. However....if you look at the big picture from the items discussed in this thread... seems like there's a few things that could subtly impact ratings positively over a long period of time.
There are a few factors in the calculations that have been incorporated to stabilize the overall rating pool over time. I'm not sure the overall ratings have inflated. It would be hard to measure even if you look at tournament course data over the years. Foliage growth and changes will undermine those efforts. However, longer holes/courses and artificially wider scoring spread from excessive OB will increase ratings at the top to either make it look like ratings have inflated or our best players are playing better than Climo depending on your point of view.
 
I don't see how anyone would disagree that "removing low numbers from a data pool causes the avg data in the pool to increase". Granted...like Chuck said the overall effect on ratings in this case would be small. However....if you look at the big picture from the items discussed in this thread... seems like there's a few things that could subtly impact ratings positively over a long period of time.

I agree that there would be a step change caused by removing low rated rounds. Chuck assures us that shift is small, but to be inflationary suggests a constant increase. It's possible that the effect of dropping these rounds is small enough to always be washed away by the natural variation in player's rated rounds.
 
There are a few factors in the calculations that have been incorporated to stabilize the overall rating pool over time. I'm not sure the overall ratings have inflated. It would be hard to measure even if you look at tournament course data over the years. Foliage growth and changes will undermine those efforts. However, longer holes/courses and artificially wider scoring spread from excessive OB will increase ratings at the top to either make it look like ratings have inflated or our best players are playing better than Climo depending on your point of view.

As said before, I really appreciate you participating in this discussion.

I'm very new to this sport, but this round rating thing seems to be a mystery. Although I haven't attempted to calculate player ratings, it appears to me that the exact formula is published with the weighting. I know there are a few tweaks to establish a rating prior to having a full data set, but unless I'm unaware of something, if one has a full data set, it looks like the calculation is explained explicitly.

OTOH, the calculation for the round ratings and SSA appears to be a mystery. There are a lot of general descriptions of the process that seem to nail it down, but then you make a comment like "a few factors in the calculation" that are undefined publicly to the best of my knowledge.

I suppose I could understand if the thought is to prevent players from gaming the system, but I would not agree that that is an appropriate reason for concealing the exact formulation. As you've said, a player can deflate their score, they cannot artificially inflate their performance.

My question is why isn't the exact formulation for the round ratings published? I certainly understand the final calculation requires all data to be in, but once that's in, why isn't there transparency in the calculation?
 
I know I'm in over my head, but wouldn't including the abnormally bad rounds, inflate the best rounds?

It seems that including those rounds would increase the average score, and increase how much the best players are shooting below the average score.
 
OK, I'll try my best below to help you understand two things: 1) how these statements came across to me; and 2) that I do understand the meaning of the words "impossible" and "not possible" vs. "highly unlikely," "improbable", etc., and have not been using them (contextually) incorrectly. I may very well be wrong in my statements, but I wasn't using them incorrectly. There's a difference. And maybe that's the part we disagree about.

There was no intent whatsoever on my part to be patronizing. If anything I wrote came across that way, I apologize sincerely.

And please keep in mind that I have stated - TWICE - that I have no disagreement with the substance of what you have written about the ratings system.

I understand that you have no disagreement with my substantive statements about the ratings system. I did get that, yes originally. I accept the apology. I'll explain the rest below so as not to be repetitive.


That is an interesting article, thank you for posting. I learned something, and I always appreciate that.

If I read the article correctly, it sounds like they are sequencing the whole genome, or close to it, to detect subtle genetic differences between identical twins. Standard paternity tests examine a much more limited number of markers and would be unlikely to distinguish between identical twins.

Perhaps & possibly. I can tell you that the biological sciences (genetics, genome sequencing, mapping, etc., among others) are not my specialty. Mine lies in the physical sciences and mathematics. On biological siences, perhaps you, and I am certain many others, are far more knowledgeable than I.


The first definition of "impossible", per your link, is "incapable of being or of occurring". I will go back to the probability that the air in a room suddenly rushes to the corners, leaving most of the room in a vacuum. This has probably never happened. It will probably never happen while humans exist, and might never happen while our universe exists. But it could happen tomorrow, and the probability can be calculated.

Would you consider such an event "incapabable of being or occurring"? That could be the essence of our communication disconnect.

Yes sir. That is impossible. While anyone may theorize about things like that all the time, the laws of physics are finite. That occurrence is impossible. The expression "anything is possible" is only true in certain contexts. While we may be able to imagine anything, there are certain things that are not possible in the world as it is currently situated. Might there be another world out in the galaxies somewhere where that occurrence might be possible?? Sure, maybe, I don't know. But my answer in this context of this world we live in today is that the example you gave above is incapable of being or occurring, thus impossible. I am going to continue to reiterate that I do know what the word means.

Mathematically, a lot of things can be calculated. I can calculate the probability that chromosomes might spontaneously realign themselves overnight and my wife will wake tomorrow morning and be my husband. But that's not possible. There exist an entire field of mathematical study and application based upon imaginary numbers. Just because something can be calculated, doesn't merit therein proof that it is possible in the real world. This one.

I am genuinely baffled why you interpret what I have written as disrespectful. That was not my purpose or intent. I respect your knowledge of disc golf and statistics, as I specifically stated previously. But we clearly differ on what "impossible" means. Which is pretty far from the substance of this thread.

I do not think we disagree on what the word means -- but perhaps I am wrong about that. The thing I feel is disrespectful was to keep telling me that "I didn't understand what I was actually saying" over and over. It came across as "you're not smart enough to really understand what the words mean." I hope you aren't baffled as to how I might interpret it that way. It's like telling me, "you didn't really mean orange when you said 'orange'; you meant 'blue'."


I completely agree that no "sure thing investment" exists. Given your interest in finance and statistics, you might find the Long-Term Capital Management saga rather interesting. Or perhaps not. In any case, I have not read this book but it is supposed to be quite good.

At Long-Term, Meriwether & Co. truly believed that their finely tuned computer models had tamed the genie of risk, and would allow them to bet on the future with near mathematical certainty. And thanks to their cast--which included a pair of future Nobel Prize winners--investors believed them.

When Genius Failed: The Rise and Fall of Long-Term Capital Management

The Nobel Prize winners were Merton and Scholes, who received Nobel Prize in Economics for developing the Black-Scholes-Merton model for valuing derivatives.

See here. We both do know what the words mean. Common ground has been established. You clearly state above that they had "bet" on the future with "near" mathematical certainty. Therein lies the difference. I take you at your word when you said these guys were betting on a near certainty.
 
Yes sir. That is impossible. While anyone may theorize about things like that all the time, the laws of physics are finite. That occurrence is impossible. The expression "anything is possible" is only true in certain contexts. While we may be able to imagine anything, there are certain things that are not possible in the world as it is currently situated. Might there be another world out in the galaxies somewhere where that occurrence might be possible?? Sure, maybe, I don't know. But my answer in this context of this world we live in today is that the example you gave above is incapable of being or occurring, thus impossible. I am going to continue to reiterate that I do know what the word means.

Mathematically, a lot of things can be calculated. I can calculate the probability that chromosomes might spontaneously realign themselves overnight and my wife will wake tomorrow morning and be my husband. But that's not possible. There exist an entire field of mathematical study and application based upon imaginary numbers. Just because something can be calculated, doesn't merit therein proof that it is possible in the real world. This one.

I'm just going to throw my head on the chopping block, but this is not what I interpret Monocacy to be saying in regards to his air sucked out of the room example.

I interpret his statement to be that it is within the bounds of the known laws of physics for this to occur and thus the only way such a probability exists.

Now, I don't know what he knows--my knowledge of physics would say there is no probability of that happening (it is impossible), but there are people much more knowledgeable on the subject than I am. Typically before we get in to calculating probabilities of particle behavior we start with macro analysis such as the gas law which says pretty conclusively that all the air cannot choose to coalesce in the corner of the room leaving a vacuum.
 
I'm just going to throw my head on the chopping block, but this is not what I interpret Monocacy to be saying in regards to his air sucked out of the room example.

Oh, let's just let this sleeping dog lie. Please? :D

That will allow everyone else can get back to arguing about ratings.

If you are interested in entropy and probability, this Wikipedia page nicely summarizes the issue:

Second Law of Thermodynamics: Extreme probability and statistics
 
will increase ratings at the top to either make it look like ratings have inflated or our best players are playing better than Climo depending on your point of view.

In my observations it's the players at the top getting the benefit the most. Especially as the avg player rating increases.

But I'd like to echo what was said earlier, thank you for taking the time to chime in with your replies. It has to be a challenge to design a ratings system that is fair today as it was 20+ years ago. My biggest concern is the fact that the ratings system has no cap. Is that correct? After viewing tournament data with much fewer high rated pros in the climo era, I'm starting to question Paul's peak rating potentially being 30+ points higher than Climo's peak.

Oh, let's just let this sleeping dog lie. Please? :D

nah..I was never on board with the "impossible" thing either, "highly improbable" ? Yes. lol..
 
My biggest concern is the fact that the ratings system has no cap. Is that correct? After viewing tournament data with much fewer high rated pros in the climo era, I'm starting to question Paul's peak rating potentially being 30+ points higher than Climo's peak.
Every course layout has a practical ratings cap in terms of how far below par the design allows that has no relation to how many highly rated players are in the field. Since the courses Paul plays in competition are longer on average than Climo's era, several more courses have more room to realistically shoot farther below true 1000-rated par (not the par set by TDs) including eagles. In addition, the phantom strokes embedded in excessive OB layouts inflates the true 1000 rated par making it easier to card penalty free scores farther under that par without actually shooting a lower score than when there's no tournament OB on that same layout.

Climo may have maxed out what rating was possible during his era with the shorter courses and limited OB compared to today. What we don't know is how much untapped potential he had to go higher if he were able to play the courses today with this equipment. I think we can project that Paul has the skills to match Climo if he played in that era. And we now know he has demonstrated the ability to go higher on these longer and sometimes OB laden courses. Climo never had the chance when he was peaking to see how well he could match Paul.
 
nah..I was never on board with the "impossible" thing either, "highly improbable" ? Yes. lol..

I understand that's your opinion. But how well do you understand the mathematics and probability? Please allow me to clarify my statement about your "hypothetical" scenario:
It is not possible (intended) for a set or "better" players (set being of large enough number to draw valid and internally reliable conclusions from) to play worse than a set of "worse" players on the same legit course/same day/same format/same layout (legit meaning one for which no attempted manipulations of the ratings system have occurred with said course, and one of sufficient length and number of holes to be valid & reliable) for the entire round.
That's not possible.

If the "better players" somehow played worse than the "worse players," well they wouldn't really have been the better players in the first place -- by definition. If they are better, then they are. Which means they play better. One-offs can happen. But with sufficient numbers to draw valid and reliable conclusions, they can't. Impossible. Again, yes, you can plug those numbers into the computer with the formula and it will spit out a result. I'm just saying that said result has no validity and/or reliability to it, and therefore cannot callow any legitimate conclusions to be drawn from it.

You guys disagree, I get it. But no one had ever refuted that better players playing "worse" than worse players doesn't mean they were really worse players in the first place. The only examples I can think of involve manipulations (like Jugular talked about upthread), all of which rendered the experiment one which valid and reliable conclusions could not be drawn.
 
Right now, there are 1000s of monkeys tapping away at old typewriters trying to prove that with enough time and effort, they could produce the exact script of a Shakespearean play, or any play for that matter.
 
Right now, there are 1000s of monkeys tapping away at old typewriters trying to prove that with enough time and effort, they could produce the exact script of a Shakespearean play, or any play for that matter.

Is it not impossible that, given an infinite amount of time, an infinite number of monkeys could really do that? Im sure we COULD calculate those odds.....

However, it's impossible. Why? Because there is a finite number of monkeys available for this exercise.



I love that old adage. Just want to pile on to the discussion here, adding absolutely nothing to it in the process. I love when we sink to petty arguments on semantics. Are we really splitting hairs here over .000000001% odds? I mean, I know life is boring right now for many of us, but jeez.
 
...(set being of large enough number to draw valid and internally reliable conclusions from) to play worse than a set of "worse" players on the same legit course/same day/same format/same layout ...

You might be surprised at how many players that would actually take - and how different their ratings would have to be - to get very small chances of it happening.
 
Is it not impossible that, given an infinite amount of time, an infinite number of monkeys could really do that? Im sure we COULD calculate those odds.....

However, it's impossible. Why? Because there is a finite number of monkeys available for this exercise.



I love that old adage. Just want to pile on to the discussion here, adding absolutely nothing to it in the process. I love when we sink to petty arguments on semantics. Are we really splitting hairs here over .000000001% odds? I mean, I know life is boring right now for many of us, but jeez.

From Wikipedia Infinite Monkey Theorem

In 2002[12], lecturers and students from the University of Plymouth MediaLab Arts course used a £2,000 grant from the Arts Council to study the literary output of real monkeys. They left a computer keyboard in the enclosure of six Celebes crested macaques in Paignton Zoo in Devon, England for a month, with a radio link to broadcast the results on a website.[13]

Not only did the monkeys produce nothing but five total pages largely consisting of the letter 'S',[12] the lead male began striking the keyboard with a stone, and other monkeys followed by soiling it. Mike Phillips, director of the university's Institute of Digital Arts and Technology (i-DAT), said that the artist-funded project was primarily performance art, and they had learned "an awful lot" from it. He concluded that monkeys "are not random generators. They're more complex than that. ... They were quite interested in the screen, and they saw that when they typed a letter, something happened. There was a level of intention there."[13][14]

The full text created by the monkeys is available to read "here" (PDF).[12]
 
But. That's a finite number of monkeys and a finite amount of time.



Just playing along with the theme of the thread.

Infinity is cheating. Just as you can prove any incorrect math conjecture by including a step which divides by zero, when you invoke infinity you are operating outside the bounds of logic.
 
Infinity is cheating. Just as you can prove any incorrect math conjecture by including a step which divides by zero, when you invoke infinity you are operating outside the bounds of logic.

Agreed. But isn't the number still calculable?
Maybe it's not an infinite number of monkeys. Maybe that number is 100,000,000,000,000,000,000,000 monkeys given 100,000,000,000,000,000,000,000 years?

Isn't that the thing we are arguing about here? Things being "mathematically possible"?

My point in all this is ......the original argument taking place, in my opinion, is just silly.
 

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