Stop using the power pocket, Stop it!

[Jaani]

Or just let the shoulder follow the throwing arm without forcing it. Just like it's not necessary to push the back leg to make it move with the pelvis, you really don't have to push the rear arm or shoulder to make it follow the torso.

Of course for most people here this just can't be true, but I believe it is. I believe in letting things happen, not force them to happen.

 

[sidewinder22]

Or just let the shoulder follow the throwing arm without forcing it. Just like it's not necessary to push the back leg to make it move with the pelvis, you really don't have to push the rear arm or shoulder to make it follow the torso.

Of course for most people here this just can't be true, but I believe it is. I believe in letting things happen, not force them to happen.

When you throw a javelin or ball, do you just let your off shoulder follow along?

Or do you use it somehow to help setup/leverage the throw more efficiently?

I don't believe that motor skills just happen, they must be learned one way or another.

Backstroke with the off arm sets up the lead arm swing.

 

[Sheep]

When you throw a javelin or ball, do you just let your off shoulder follow along?

Or do you use it somehow to help setup/leverage the throw more efficiently?

I don't believe that motor skills just happen, they must be learned one way or another.

Backstroke with the off arm sets up the lead arm swing.

Our bodies are really really smart.
However, lets make sure were stating this as a generalism. Some people just don't have the background in biomechanics to do some things naturally. ALA, "I spent my childhood swiping on a tablet and watching youtube video's of people playing minecraft" and now they are 18 and have 0 motor skills.

I digress. (that study they did was pretty crazy though)

The body will naturally try and keep itself in check. And I think Jaani's point is that we should always try and let the body do what it does if all possible. And only when the body really has no idea how to actually do that due to low cognitive function or just piss poor motor skills due to your background in life, only then should we try and force the function vs let the function fall naturally.

When we talk about throwing a ball or whatever the other things are, we are not thinking about anything but throwing it.
Now, depending on your background will depend on how well you gonna throw something like that. Because as a child and.. well also as an adult i've thrown, hucked, chucked, smucked, wacked, smacked and all of the above on any object I could over my life time. Cause.. Well. If I go to a river all things must go back into the river.
I played sports. I developed skills over time doing all those things. I'm not just walking out and throwing a javelin.

Crap, I'm getting way off track.

lets think about it like this. People who've been busy bodies generally have some sort of ability to try and correctly counter movements in their body though other actions.

Other people dont.

But in cases lets say of the off arm.
Most people screw up the off arm because they are trying to do something with the off arm vs just letting it hang loose to their side and naturally counter the rotation. Our body will que it to counter, we dont have to make a "swimming motion" to get it to counter.

But we can visibly see that the motion takes place naturally.

Point being, we need to set our bodies up into correct positions so that the body will auto pilot the correct movements for maximum power automagically.
When we focus to much energy on to many things we cannot focus on just being as natural and loose as possible, which is the key to explosive movements.


I'm not saying that things like the swim move have no place, because someone might not naturally have body counter mechanics. and then we want to add that step in for them.


I've spoke to Jaani quite a bit and sat down and just re-thought everything. My state of mind about disc golf, my mentality towards the subject of coaching, my idea's and philosophy of where things should go and need to go. And I got caught in the trap of my mind wanting to know EVERYTHING. And I still do, but now I'm back in control of it.

I think as coaches its important for us to be educated on a crazy level so we can help others and understand things from a deep perspective and the simplest of perspectives.

I spent to much time trying to over complicate things in my head, over analyze my own form and others.
And, well. We, as in us here and others on the internet, we.. We over complicate everything way to much.
Simplicity is important. Add complicated stuff when you need to. Otherwise let the body be as natural as possible and suddenly were back to something tangible. No secret moves, no hidden messages of whatever.

If the body isn't falling into place when coaching, step back and make sure the base is good, make sure you go over whats going on. get people into a position to succeed naturally as best you can. Use drills like swim move and other things to help them feel the correct positions or natural motions. Don't teach them as a necessity to be successful. Teach people to let their bodies sing and dance.

 

[Jaani]

First of all, Javelin and Baseball and nearly every other sport is done with the rear arm. They really need the front of the body to get out of the way, simple as that. The front arm and the front side won't rotate from behind so we would have to rotate it first to make space for the throwing arm.

In disc golf backhand everything happens freely because we throw from the front without anything stopping the arm from moving freely.

I have always wondered why, oh why we still talk about javelin more than disc golf, but maybe it's because us coaches just want to prove and not improve.

 

[Sheep]

First of all, Javelin and Baseball and nearly every other sport is done with the rear arm. They really need the front of the body to get out of the way, simple as that. The front arm and the front side won't rotate from behind so we would have to rotate it first to make space for the throwing arm.

In disc golf backhand everything happens freely because we throw from the front without anything stopping the arm from moving freely.

I have always wondered why, oh why we still talk about javelin more than disc golf, but maybe it's because us coaches just want to prove and not improve.

I think if anything my understanding of anything javelin is about creating the kinetic chain through the brace.

Though I see where the correlation comes from with it, its more of a demonstration of a similar technique to give sight to properly bracing in disc golf.


Hmm, this leads me to an interesting thought.

I'll have to put more into it, but throwing type actions are done in tension, and swing type actions are done in compression.

We want to huck frisbees in Compression. We are driving the arm with the body.

When you throw something, you're generally throwing in tension because we are dragging the arm with the body.

 

[timothy42b]

The body will naturally try and keep itself in check. And I think Jaani's point is that we should always try and let the body do what it does if all possible. And only when the body really has no idea how to actually do that due to low cognitive function or just piss poor motor skills due to your background in life, only then should we try and force the function vs let the function fall naturally.

Mythbusters did an episode on "throwing like a girl." (elbow comes forward, hand pushes like throwing a dart) When they tested nondominant arms everybody threw that way - correct throwing was a learned skill that males were just much more exposed to when young.

However. I might be wrong on this, but I think we vary a lot in preferred learning styles. The inner tennis approach lets the body do what it does, and for one group of people that really works. But I think another group of people just doesn't learn well that way, and they have to do the painfully slow analysis of mechanics rather than focus on results. I think our brains are hard wired that way, or if not then we're stuck there because of a lifetime of experience.

(and that's a big part of why top performers sometimes can't teach - most of them were natural inner tennis learners.)

 

[Sheep]

Mythbusters did an episode on "throwing like a girl." (elbow comes forward, hand pushes like throwing a dart) When they tested nondominant arms everybody threw that way - correct throwing was a learned skill that males were just much more exposed to when young.

However. I might be wrong on this, but I think we vary a lot in preferred learning styles. The inner tennis approach lets the body do what it does, and for one group of people that really works. But I think another group of people just doesn't learn well that way, and they have to do the painfully slow analysis of mechanics rather than focus on results. I think our brains are hard wired that way, or if not then we're stuck there because of a lifetime of experience.

(and that's a big part of why top performers sometimes can't teach - most of them were natural inner tennis learners.)

Yeah, I think that is my main point overall.

Set people your teaching up in a way to see what their body tries to do.
Make corrections then.

But We don't teach like that, we teach like "oh you need to swim move" or "the double move gets the most power" or whatever other crazy thing.

Vs these are the key points and find your flow.
Then using other things to help people get into that position.

But we treat it like "if you dont, then you wont" and thats just really not the case as well.

 

[Jaani]

Yeah, I think that is my main point overall.

Set people your teaching up in a way to see what their body tries to do.
Make corrections then.

But We don't teach like that, we teach like "oh you need to swim move" or "the double move gets the most power" or whatever other crazy thing.

Vs these are the key points and find your flow.
Then using other things to help people get into that position.

But we treat it like "if you dont, then you wont" and thats just really not the case as well.

Exactly my point.

It's like walking. We all do the same thing, use the same muscles and pretty much the same cadence and speed even. And still, we all look different doing it.

Some wave the arms more, some bounce with calves, some kick up back, some kick up front. It is almost impossible to change the natural flow of your walking.

And sure enough, there are more efficient styles of walking, of course. We still need to accept that we can only do our best with what we have. Even with a perfect walking or running technique I would have never beaten Usain Bolt, or even the guys who lose seconds to him.

Like sheep said, there are principals we need to follow. My philosphy is, we can't make the body faster with learning the technique, rather we can remove the obstacles that slow it down from it's potential. The speed work is done in the gym, and with good form we can make the most of it.

 

[Brychanus]

First of all, Javelin and Baseball and nearly every other sport is done with the rear arm. They really need the front of the body to get out of the way, simple as that. The front arm and the front side won't rotate from behind so we would have to rotate it first to make space for the throwing arm.

In disc golf backhand everything happens freely because we throw from the front without anything stopping the arm from moving freely.

I have always wondered why, oh why we still talk about javelin more than disc golf, but maybe it's because us coaches just want to prove and not improve.

Watching this discussion, I can't tell if some parts of it are substantive disagreements about mechanics, differences in emphasis, or differences in coaching styles. So I'm mostly tracking the salient mechanics points.

On this one in particular, I did want to note that in a baseball swing, the leading arm is usually leveraging the bat out into the hit (like a DG BH). It's important to note that the rear shoulder is usually discussed as part of the leverage chain as it swings "inside" the posture - leading the front or swinging arm.

One difference between a baseball swing and disc golf BH is that the rear hand just remains on the bat rather than counterrotates through relaxed by the side (the "swim" part of the move in DG). I think some people in this discussion are disagreeing about the swim part as well. In general, I do not think you are literally "pushing on air" like you would in the water, but you are finding an arm pattern in the context of the posture to help set up the leverage in the shoulders.

 

[Jaani]

I have noticed that if you really, really want to activate the rear arm and look like McBeth, it is very simple.

You take a heavy, bulky object like medicine ball or a box. You hold it with two hands and throw it backhand style so many times, that you can feel doing the work with your rear arm.

Now, pick up a disc but throw it like you just did using the bulky object. Your rear arm should work like McBeth's: it compresses and swings inside "double move" style, because it's lighter than the front arm holding a disc and because the brace makes the rear side rotate.

Again, I am not sure this adds anything to your throw, but this is how I learned it before deciding it's not worth the trouble.

But if someone wants to try it, please let me know how it went.

 

[Sard0nyx]

Watching this discussion, I can't tell if some parts of it are substantive disagreements about mechanics, differences in emphasis, or differences in coaching styles. So I'm mostly tracking the salient mechanics points.

I agree with this. In my experience trawling through the internet and YouTube, there's substantial confusion and conflicting information that is still out there. I think that the disc golf throw still has not been "solved" in terms of teaching pro level distance to an amateur. We talk all day about body positions, videos, and use still images but those things do not inherently make the disc fly farther. I'm skeptical that pro players are able to throw 450-500 only because of leverage or their own athleticism. It seems that pro players just figure it out and aren't able to fully explain what they do. We also seem to focus on body positions rather than the end results. The biggest indicator that someone is throwing correctly should be how fast the disc comes out and how far it goes.

I like Jaani's points about body differences and simplifying the throw. At the end of the day, we should be focusing on disc acceleration and doing everything to increase that at the end of the throw because that's what will make us throw farther.

I know this may be a controversial take, but we really might be missing the forest for the trees when we focus on drills and positions rather than end result.

 

[sidewinder22]

First of all, Javelin and Baseball and nearly every other sport is done with the rear arm. They really need the front of the body to get out of the way, simple as that. The front arm and the front side won't rotate from behind so we would have to rotate it first to make space for the throwing arm.

In disc golf backhand everything happens freely because we throw from the front without anything stopping the arm from moving freely.

I have always wondered why, oh why we still talk about javelin more than disc golf, but maybe it's because us coaches just want to prove and not improve.

I used Javelin because I figured you are more familiar with than over in Finland and that might help further the discussion or understanding here.

In a backhand, the rear arm must get/clear out of the way of the backswing in some fashion. Just like you mention in forehand the lead arm must get out of the way of the forward swing for the trail arm to swing thru unimpeded.

Dr. Rotella talks about how there is learning mode and performance mode. Performance mode is when you aren't thinking about anything but sending the ball/disc to it's home, but in learning mode you have to think about things.

I teach the off arm in several different ways. You have to give it a task of some sort, like not spilling the beverage or swimming. This is probably more up your ally.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZJ4pxndBpJ4#t=1m30s

How about a one arm olympic hammer throw or dodgeball backhand? Do you not use your trail arm to leverage the swing?

 

[crd 81]

Watching this discussion, I can't tell if some parts of it are substantive disagreements about mechanics, differences in emphasis, or differences in coaching styles. So I'm mostly tracking the salient mechanics points.

I would say the disagreement is on emphasis. Natural (incidental) vs conscious effort in an action. There is, however, a definite balance between letting the body do what it does naturally (incidental) and an action that requires a conscious effort.

Thankfully, I assume most everyone here agrees with each other on the basic disc golf mechanics of what constitutes a good throw (not squashing the bug). It's that small percentage that we agree to disagree on. And, you know what, that's okay. It's all about refinement.

 

[drk_evns]

I think some people are confusing drills with actual swings. "Don't think about anything and just throw" will often lead to absolutely no progress in the field... but it is still an important form of practice.

In all things balance. The amount of research vs practice. Thought vs feel. Evolution vs repetition. Tipping vs not. Strike a balance.

There are certainly people here that talk way too much and do too little. I was guilty of that for a long time.

 

[Brychanus]

I agree with this. In my experience trawling through the internet and YouTube, there's substantial confusion and conflicting information that is still out there. I think that the disc golf throw still has not been "solved" in terms of teaching pro level distance to an amateur. We talk all day about body positions, videos, and use still images but those things do not inherently make the disc fly farther. I'm skeptical that pro players are able to throw 450-500 only because of leverage or their own athleticism. It seems that pro players just figure it out and aren't able to fully explain what they do. We also seem to focus on body positions rather than the end results. The biggest indicator that someone is throwing correctly should be how fast the disc comes out and how far it goes.

I like Jaani's points about body differences and simplifying the throw. At the end of the day, we should be focusing on disc acceleration and doing everything to increase that at the end of the throw because that's what will make us throw farther.

I know this may be a controversial take, but we really might be missing the forest for the trees when we focus on drills and positions rather than end result.

I generally agree with this. I also do think that learners often focus too much on positions or stillframes or snapshots even if that is not really the main lesson or intent of the coach - this is one of the challenges for anyone learning remotely or in a medium such as a forum like DGCR.

I do think that the answers, if somewhat scattershot, exist in some form on this forum and other sources out there. The answers include putting in the hard work.

 

[Sard0nyx]

I generally agree with this. I also do think that learners often focus too much on positions or stillframes or snapshots even if that is not really the main lesson or intent of the coach - this is one of the challenges for anyone learning remotely or in a medium such as a forum like DGCR.

I do think that the answers, if somewhat scattershot, exist in some form on this forum and other sources out there. The answers include putting in the hard work.

I think my main issue with this forum is that there are bits and pieces scattered about. It's very difficult to sort through the pieces and put them all together. I truly think the average male should be able to throw 450-500 on a golf line with proper form. I do agree with you that work must be put in. You can't just change something and magically add 100ft to your throw.

I see you've started compiling a big writeup on form. I'd love to read it if you've gotten some decent progress on it.

 

[Sheep]

I think some people are confusing drills with actual swings. "Don't think about anything and just throw" will often lead to absolutely no progress in the field... but it is still an important form of practice.

In all things balance. The amount of research vs practice. Thought vs feel. Evolution vs repetition. Tipping vs not. Strike a balance.

There are certainly people here that talk way too much and do too little. I was guilty of that for a long time.

I think what you're saying here is on the right track here to an extent.

I think the point that Jaani makes is we over emphasis some of these things over complicating them and watering them down a little bit in the process.

I also do think that learners often focus too much on positions or stillframes or snapshots even if that is not really the main lesson or intent of the coach...

We have to be conscious of what we say and how we relay that information as well when people come in here and read what we talk about, because it does sometimes feel like we over focus on some things and it can get confusing. So people get caught up in some move or drill putting to much emphasis on it.

Then we get things like the "double move" out there and "Back leg disc golf" and then it causes things to be silly and just you want to throw your hands up in the air.

Thus the thought in the "swim move" being an active movement to the swing vs a reactive movement in the swing.

As in actively trying to scoop at the air, vs letting your body naturally counterweight its force.

And I think some of the jabs taken at the "scoop at air" were kind of bad scoffs. It's a description of what it looks like you're doing.

I can see it working for some, but I think we might put to much emphasis on it. Because we might be covering up a bad mechanic by turning a reactive mechanic into an active mechanic.

 

[Surly Bastage]

I also do think that learners often focus too much on positions or stillframes or snapshots even if that is not really the main lesson or intent of the coach - this is one of the challenges for anyone learning remotely or in a medium such as a forum like DGCR

I agree, but even knowing this I still sometimes get so focused on positions I end up too tense and lose track of the feels.

This reminded me of Blake_t and the "Incomplete" Secret Technique thread

https://www.dgcoursereview.com/dgr/...&sid=5c28b9d2b8bac693e83307906d99a897#p292777

"it's all about feel and not about trying to mimic specifics."

 

[Sard0nyx]

I agree, but even knowing this I still sometimes get so focused on positions I end up too tense and lose track of the feels.

This reminded me of Blake_t and the "Incomplete" Secret Technique thread

https://www.dgcoursereview.com/dgr/...&sid=5c28b9d2b8bac693e83307906d99a897#p292777

"it's all about feel and not about trying to mimic specifics."

I really think we need to go back to the feel. Feels the snap, eject the disc. Once you have that, figure out how to add power to the motion without hindering it from happening. I think we're going backwards if you work on body positions without snapping the disc.

 

[Sheep]

I really think we need to go back to the feel. Feels the snap, eject the disc. Once you have that, figure out how to add power to the motion without hindering it from happening. I think we're going backwards if you work on body positions without snapping the disc.

The best way I can explain any of this is that there isn't really a "secret technique" to driving.

It's learning that you have to let go of the wheel and smash on the gas. As long as your alignment (fundamentals) are good, you'll have a decent result.

The problems come from people thinking that "smashing on the gas" means "throwing as hard as you can" which is not the case.

Smashing the gas is hitting your brace proper, and if your body is setup right (aligned) the results will take care of themselves.

Taking coaching to a new simplicity level has really helped my mental state for one, I stop trying to slay form and only focus on the most basics of basics with people and see results SO much faster.

It still follows my concept of always trying to find the underlying core mechanic that's screwing the rest of things up.

But when we look at a lot of mechanics overall, we have a basic idea of a lot of the important steps overall with those mechanics.
And we should focus on the basics of those mechanics, and while I love talking about a lot of this advanced stuff. I don't think there is any one "move" that is going to break the records.

If anything at all, the 'secret move' is to not try and do any 'secret moves' but to be relaxed and engaged fluidly, which will create the largest kinetic chain as we are at that point just bumping the steering wheel ever so slightly to keep things on track, vs trying to grip it and drive it the whole way.

I mean, if we want to think about it, that's the whole idea behind the pendulum style swing.
Twirly bird, noodle arm. whatever you want ot call it.
Its about trying to keep it as simple and natural as possible letting the flow create the swing.