Allurex
* Ace Member *
I'll be headed down early Friday morning. Probably won't be able to play all of the courses before, but hopefully at least a couple.
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2014 Amateur World Doubles at Selah Ranch and Trey Texas Ranch April 4-6, 2014
- Thread starter StuMagoo
- Start date
grodney
* Ace Member *
If anybody is rummaging through the Pro Shop lake discs and sees my green QOLS 1.1, I'll pay you $20 total to ship it to me. That's $5 to buy the disc from them, $5 to ship, and $10 for your trouble.
Green QOLS 1.1, back is inked with a "G" and a documented ace on Lakeside #11 03/28/2014. It was lost in the water just in front (and left) of the #18 Lakeside short tee.
Thanks.
Green QOLS 1.1, back is inked with a "G" and a documented ace on Lakeside #11 03/28/2014. It was lost in the water just in front (and left) of the #18 Lakeside short tee.
Thanks.
Allurex
* Ace Member *
Pools and schedules are out. A Pool here.
Looks like we're starting out with Best Shot on Trey Deuce, which is cool. It'll be nice to start out with the familiar doubles format to get into the swing of things.
Looks like we're starting out with Best Shot on Trey Deuce, which is cool. It'll be nice to start out with the familiar doubles format to get into the swing of things.
Adv B pool here. We'll be starting out playing alternating shot on Texas Twist. Kinda glad to get that format out of the way first thing. After looking at the pics of Trey and Twist, it looks like Twist will be the more challenging of the two.
OJnBasquits
Par Member
Standard.
Dead thread.
Dead thread.
grodney
* Ace Member *
Soooo, report on courses?
The Selah courses were in as good of shape as ever (would like to get out this summer and play them more once the trees have filled back out and everything is green). The Trey Texas courses are in good shape*. Trey Deuce is very playable on a dry casual round. Texas Twist is still rough to get through as it's still not done with the clearing stages. Both Trey courses can't be played if there is rain (trey deuce floods holes 3,4,5,9,10, and 11 very easily as the creak runs right there.
As far as the tournament goes. It was another John Houck disaster. It was plagued by issues from the start of the 1st round (somehow started over 30 minutes late while even having the players meeting the night before). Saturday has light sprinkles late in the afternoon and there was still a pool of players that couldn't finish their round due to poor scheduling and planing. Sunday was a complete disaster as the entire MA2 field was told that our tournament was over. We played 2 rounds Saturday and the top 6 played a final 9 format on Sunday. It was on par with the complete mess that was Texas Teams last year.
If there is anything Houck knows how to do it's build AMAZING courses and then completely and utterly ruin tournaments.
This was my last time having anything to do with a tournament that John and Dee Houck are involved with in any way. But by all means, please play the courses, they are themselves the top 4 courses I have ever played.
As far as the tournament goes. It was another John Houck disaster. It was plagued by issues from the start of the 1st round (somehow started over 30 minutes late while even having the players meeting the night before). Saturday has light sprinkles late in the afternoon and there was still a pool of players that couldn't finish their round due to poor scheduling and planing. Sunday was a complete disaster as the entire MA2 field was told that our tournament was over. We played 2 rounds Saturday and the top 6 played a final 9 format on Sunday. It was on par with the complete mess that was Texas Teams last year.
If there is anything Houck knows how to do it's build AMAZING courses and then completely and utterly ruin tournaments.
This was my last time having anything to do with a tournament that John and Dee Houck are involved with in any way. But by all means, please play the courses, they are themselves the top 4 courses I have ever played.
Allurex
* Ace Member *
Agree totally about the disorganization. Luckily I was in the MA1-A Pool and didn't have much scheduling issues, but nearly everyone else did. Hopefully someone else runs the event next year (Straight Line Discs, probably), because it could be great. I compare it to AM Worlds in Emporia last year, which DD ran and it was easily the best tournament I've ever played in.
As for the courses, they were obviously affected by the weather. Huge storm Thursday night before practice day, which caused a lot of trees to come down and left a lot of standing water around the courses. Lots of volunteers and course staff did a great job clearing a lot of the down trees, but they just couldn't get everything. I'm sure these courses are immaculate 90% of the time, we just got unlucky. The all-day rain on Sunday hurt, too.
The courses at Selah were awesome, I preferred Creekside over the Lake course. Lots of beautiful landscapes, some really risky shots, and a bunch of really tough Par 4s and 5s. The Lakeside course had all of that as well, but also had a middle bunch of holes that were really wooded that I didn't like as much. Still mostly great holes but just weren't as much fun.
The Trey Deuce course was by far the easiest one, and it helped that we played Best Shot there. Lots of 2-able holes and most of the Par 4s were not too difficult. Other than 18, there weren't very many overly wooded shots. A few that played through a tree farm were cool.
I thought Texas Twist was definitely the hardest course, and it sucked playing Alternate Shot over there. The first handful of holes are actually pretty easy, with several opportunities for birdies (other than hole #3, which I think needs another line built in). But the majority of the course is really tight in the woods, with really hard lines to hit and really unforgiving woods. The course is still very very new, and I think needs some more trees cleared on most of the wooded holes. I wouldn't want to make the course 'easy', per se, but on like 10 holes in a row you are really just playing poke-n-hope with the trees. Obviously more accurate players will do better, but some of the lines are just too tight and too much is left up to luck. Also the course was hurt by the majority of it being fairly low lying and near a bunch of creeks, which made everything really swampy after the Thursday storm. I'm told the course was unplayable on Sunday.
All in all, the courses were fantastic. Any flaws I could point out are just nitpicking against what really are the best courses I've ever played.
I think I'd be less inclined to play more tournaments there, and not because of the poor organization. I think I would enjoy them more by going down with a few friends, staying on the property, playing some golf, have a couple of beers, and just relax. The properties and the courses are beautiful and great for tournament play, but I'd personally enjoy them more playing casually. In the midst of all the competition (though it was light-hearted, mostly), it was harder for me to enjoy the courses. I envy people who live closer by and can play there multiple times a year.
As for the courses, they were obviously affected by the weather. Huge storm Thursday night before practice day, which caused a lot of trees to come down and left a lot of standing water around the courses. Lots of volunteers and course staff did a great job clearing a lot of the down trees, but they just couldn't get everything. I'm sure these courses are immaculate 90% of the time, we just got unlucky. The all-day rain on Sunday hurt, too.
The courses at Selah were awesome, I preferred Creekside over the Lake course. Lots of beautiful landscapes, some really risky shots, and a bunch of really tough Par 4s and 5s. The Lakeside course had all of that as well, but also had a middle bunch of holes that were really wooded that I didn't like as much. Still mostly great holes but just weren't as much fun.
The Trey Deuce course was by far the easiest one, and it helped that we played Best Shot there. Lots of 2-able holes and most of the Par 4s were not too difficult. Other than 18, there weren't very many overly wooded shots. A few that played through a tree farm were cool.
I thought Texas Twist was definitely the hardest course, and it sucked playing Alternate Shot over there. The first handful of holes are actually pretty easy, with several opportunities for birdies (other than hole #3, which I think needs another line built in). But the majority of the course is really tight in the woods, with really hard lines to hit and really unforgiving woods. The course is still very very new, and I think needs some more trees cleared on most of the wooded holes. I wouldn't want to make the course 'easy', per se, but on like 10 holes in a row you are really just playing poke-n-hope with the trees. Obviously more accurate players will do better, but some of the lines are just too tight and too much is left up to luck. Also the course was hurt by the majority of it being fairly low lying and near a bunch of creeks, which made everything really swampy after the Thursday storm. I'm told the course was unplayable on Sunday.
All in all, the courses were fantastic. Any flaws I could point out are just nitpicking against what really are the best courses I've ever played.
I think I'd be less inclined to play more tournaments there, and not because of the poor organization. I think I would enjoy them more by going down with a few friends, staying on the property, playing some golf, have a couple of beers, and just relax. The properties and the courses are beautiful and great for tournament play, but I'd personally enjoy them more playing casually. In the midst of all the competition (though it was light-hearted, mostly), it was harder for me to enjoy the courses. I envy people who live closer by and can play there multiple times a year.
Could the tournament be played in another month. Why would such a big tournament be played in April (April Showers-- hence the name) If it's played in April or March i'm pretty much done with it. I'm not a person who usually complains, but this thing was a total wreck. I really felt bad for The straight line guy's because they were getting all the gripes instead of John. Why would Dewayne Furr be given the task of dropping the bad news on the intermediate division instead of the tourney director. I just think that maybe the TD should change. I really would love to support John but I gotta say that last year, Texas Teams, and this year just makes it very hard to.
I quit play Houck events once Dee took over the company. Houck is great person and a wonderful course designer but the business end of things is bad... also, there are so many tournaments in Texas now that the scheduling is a train wreck to nail down. Play Houck courses just not Houck ran events.
Really, Steezo? You want to come on here and publicly insult my wife?
I know Dee has brought a lot of terrible things to our events, like the pizza parties, the beer, the best-organized registrations we've had over 20+ years, cooking meals for all the staff, the extra goodies in the player packages, clearing parts of the Circle R courses that had never been cleared, bringing on extra staff to help things run smoothly, working with the property owners, chambers, economic development commissions, cities and counties so that we can even HAVE the courses to hold tournaments on (and enjoy the rest of the year), the thousands of photos of players and spectators and sponsors, all the drawings and giveaways, a thousand little things that make the experience nicer for everyone, and a hundred more things that I'll remember after I calm down. And that's just the tournament side of what we do -- her contributions to the rest of our business are even greater and probably have done a lot more to move disc golf forward than whatever you've done so far.
I can certainly understand how someone would want to avoid tournaments that do so many things to improve a player's experience.
If you have a problem with the way our tournaments are run, then you have a problem with me, because I'm the one who designs the competition part of all our events. You and I do have a problem now, because of the way you just behaved in front of the world. Still, if you have something constructive to say, I'm happy to listen.
Perhaps you would consider acting like a gentleman and send me an e-mail, so we can have a civil discussion about your suggestions.
If you don't have anything constructive to say, that's fine. In that case, I would just appreciate it if you could show the slightest bit of good manners and not run to your keyboard to launch personal attacks against someone who has given everything she has to help disc golf grow. Thanks so much.
I know Dee has brought a lot of terrible things to our events, like the pizza parties, the beer, the best-organized registrations we've had over 20+ years, cooking meals for all the staff, the extra goodies in the player packages, clearing parts of the Circle R courses that had never been cleared, bringing on extra staff to help things run smoothly, working with the property owners, chambers, economic development commissions, cities and counties so that we can even HAVE the courses to hold tournaments on (and enjoy the rest of the year), the thousands of photos of players and spectators and sponsors, all the drawings and giveaways, a thousand little things that make the experience nicer for everyone, and a hundred more things that I'll remember after I calm down. And that's just the tournament side of what we do -- her contributions to the rest of our business are even greater and probably have done a lot more to move disc golf forward than whatever you've done so far.
I can certainly understand how someone would want to avoid tournaments that do so many things to improve a player's experience.
If you have a problem with the way our tournaments are run, then you have a problem with me, because I'm the one who designs the competition part of all our events. You and I do have a problem now, because of the way you just behaved in front of the world. Still, if you have something constructive to say, I'm happy to listen.
Perhaps you would consider acting like a gentleman and send me an e-mail, so we can have a civil discussion about your suggestions.
If you don't have anything constructive to say, that's fine. In that case, I would just appreciate it if you could show the slightest bit of good manners and not run to your keyboard to launch personal attacks against someone who has given everything she has to help disc golf grow. Thanks so much.
Menacewarf
Double Eagle Member
I'm not sure if "I quit playing ____ event when ____ took over" really qualifies as some kind of horrendous personal atack. Was the post edited?
I didn't characterize it as "horrendous."
I was going more for "misdirected," "inappropriate," "unmannerly," "unsupported," and "maddening." If I wasn't clear the first time, I hope I have now set the record straight.
I was going more for "misdirected," "inappropriate," "unmannerly," "unsupported," and "maddening." If I wasn't clear the first time, I hope I have now set the record straight.
alpha_dave
Par Member
I don't see how he insulted Dee in this situation. You hold a public event, you need to be prepared to accept public opinions on how that event was run…
FWIW, I did send y'all an email detailing the Good, the Bad and the Ugly of last weekend. I hope you can handle private criticism better than you've responded publicly.
In my opinion, the event suffered more from poor planning than from the poor weather. I can accept not having control over the weather, I have a much harder time accepting not planning for that possibility.
Dave, I had already thanked you for your e-mail and sent you the first part of my response. I appreciate you taking the time and for being so clear and thorough with the comments in your e-mail.
I am very used to public criticism of every kind, and I don't take it personally, even when it's meant personally. As I've said many, many times -- including at the players' meeting this weekend -- I value constructive input. I welcome that kind of feedback, and even moreso the kind of feedback that comes with reasonable suggestions for making things better next time.
Anyone here has the right to say whatever they want, and I have the right to speak up when I think someone is out of line. Furthermore, I have the right to defend my wife, and I will continue to do so.
Thanks.
I am very used to public criticism of every kind, and I don't take it personally, even when it's meant personally. As I've said many, many times -- including at the players' meeting this weekend -- I value constructive input. I welcome that kind of feedback, and even moreso the kind of feedback that comes with reasonable suggestions for making things better next time.
Anyone here has the right to say whatever they want, and I have the right to speak up when I think someone is out of line. Furthermore, I have the right to defend my wife, and I will continue to do so.
Thanks.
It would be nice to get some kind of compensation for waiting around most of the day Sunday to find out that there will be no chance at getting into a finals with the other top 16 teams. Being 3 out and hearing others say Trey-Deuce was the easiest of the 4 courses has me bummed. I would have loved to played the 3-2, but wasn't meant to be I suppose.
I am very glad that I got to play what most on here say are two of the top courses in the world. I loved the experience of both Selah Ranch courses, but I would have much rather made a special trip to Mt. Vernon to play the courses at our own pace and enjoyed all 4 courses. Props to John Houck for the design and to him and his wife for hosting us all on a beautiful piece of land in Tx.
I just don't think the tournament was what I had imagined it to be, considering it was a "Major" and I spent money to be a part of it. I feel shorted and would opt not to go if I had to do it over again. No attacks at anyone, just terrible weather and I only got to play 1 day for $110 fee, plus hotel (which i choose to stay at), plus gas to get there.
Its over with though. I did enjoy my one day of golf on Lakeside and Creekside, just wish I was more of a baller to justify the cost of the whole trip.
I am very glad that I got to play what most on here say are two of the top courses in the world. I loved the experience of both Selah Ranch courses, but I would have much rather made a special trip to Mt. Vernon to play the courses at our own pace and enjoyed all 4 courses. Props to John Houck for the design and to him and his wife for hosting us all on a beautiful piece of land in Tx.
I just don't think the tournament was what I had imagined it to be, considering it was a "Major" and I spent money to be a part of it. I feel shorted and would opt not to go if I had to do it over again. No attacks at anyone, just terrible weather and I only got to play 1 day for $110 fee, plus hotel (which i choose to stay at), plus gas to get there.
Its over with though. I did enjoy my one day of golf on Lakeside and Creekside, just wish I was more of a baller to justify the cost of the whole trip.
For those that are interested, here is a link to the PDGA Event Evaluation form.
http://www.pdga.com/documents/event-evaluation-form
I know I will be filling one out and so will others I know that came to this event. Maybe if we get enough people to fill the form out in a professional, respectful manner then we can get the changes put in place to make this the great event that it could be. I make no apologies saying that I will not play another Houck event after last year's doubles and teams and this year's doubles. I hope someone more capable will be able to take over this event and when that happens the other jilted players will come back with me and experience what a Major dg event should be at 4 of the greatest courses I've ever played.
http://www.pdga.com/documents/event-evaluation-form
I know I will be filling one out and so will others I know that came to this event. Maybe if we get enough people to fill the form out in a professional, respectful manner then we can get the changes put in place to make this the great event that it could be. I make no apologies saying that I will not play another Houck event after last year's doubles and teams and this year's doubles. I hope someone more capable will be able to take over this event and when that happens the other jilted players will come back with me and experience what a Major dg event should be at 4 of the greatest courses I've ever played.
Apparently it's the worst thing you could ever say about someone
johnrhouck said:
Are you sure about that? Think this might be the second time in a week you flew off the proverbial handle
alpha_dave
Par Member
Yea, thanks for responding to my email, John. And for being willing to listen to suggestions on how to make things better.
Here's what my two cents on what could've been done different(from my email response )
I feel like there were several better options both before the tournament and during:
Before) Lower cap on the number of players. There should have only been enough players to fill two courses at a time, so only use one course at each site at a time. That way if the Trey courses became impassible, those groups could just be moved back to Selah since the drainage there is clearly superior.
During) on the day of the tourney, the B pool should have been cut after the first round (or there should have been cuts at some point) Almost the entire pool left anyways, and those of us that did stay had Zero chance of moving up to the awards positions (Instead we were given the option of going out and playing wet and in the muck or receiving a DNF, which my partner was dead set against…and frankly I don't blame him). This would have also opened up space at Selah which could have allowed MA2 and the other pools to finish out at Lakeside. This wouldn't have been ideal, but at least those competing for prizes would've had a chance to finish out.
3) I know expanding the tourney to three days next year has been brought up, which would help. There's no reason why we couldn't of had a preliminary round on Friday. I would also suggest no shotgun starts after the first day. Make cuts, assign tee times and run the later rounds like most Majors do, one card going out at a time.
Again, just my opinion from my personal experiences this weekend.
Here's what my two cents on what could've been done different(from my email response )
I feel like there were several better options both before the tournament and during:
Before) Lower cap on the number of players. There should have only been enough players to fill two courses at a time, so only use one course at each site at a time. That way if the Trey courses became impassible, those groups could just be moved back to Selah since the drainage there is clearly superior.
During) on the day of the tourney, the B pool should have been cut after the first round (or there should have been cuts at some point) Almost the entire pool left anyways, and those of us that did stay had Zero chance of moving up to the awards positions (Instead we were given the option of going out and playing wet and in the muck or receiving a DNF, which my partner was dead set against…and frankly I don't blame him). This would have also opened up space at Selah which could have allowed MA2 and the other pools to finish out at Lakeside. This wouldn't have been ideal, but at least those competing for prizes would've had a chance to finish out.
3) I know expanding the tourney to three days next year has been brought up, which would help. There's no reason why we couldn't of had a preliminary round on Friday. I would also suggest no shotgun starts after the first day. Make cuts, assign tee times and run the later rounds like most Majors do, one card going out at a time.
Again, just my opinion from my personal experiences this weekend.
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