Dynamic Discs statement RE:Am Worlds in Emporia will be a trophy-only tournament

[sidewinder22]

Trophy only makes sense for collegiate and high school tournaments and championships. So do away with the word amateur when discussing our current structure and only apply it to collegiate/high school formats.

You all need to let go of the terms professional and amateur in their literal meaning and look at the reality of who plays in tournaments and what they are wanting out of it. Most current PDGA participants are 30 somethings that simply want the tournament experience.

A payout is just another part of that experience. Take away the payout and you're taking away part of the tournament experience. Just because the PDGA utilizes those terms does not mean anything.

If you want to win stuff you should go Pro for that experience. Or make side bets with other Ams. I'm a 30 something Am and don't think Am payout is part of the experience. It's really ridiculous to me..."and winner of 23rd place in the Am division and taking home 3 Bosses, 2 Rocs, and a Teebird is so-and-so" *crowd goes crazy* Why should an Am win more than a Pro in any tourney?

 

[elnino]

where do i sign up for this? 35 dollars for 175 dollar players pack!!! and three rounds. i'm not sure i even understand the problem?

funny later he says 200+ if he went any longer maybe the players pack woudl be 225 or 250.

Stop the baggers not the people from coming out.

 

[1978]

I agree. Heck, i might even buy more than that $20 if you have a disc store on-site that i can buy discs I want to throw.

Fair enough. I think I was talking about it from my perspective as a player.

Certainly, the system helps disc manufacturers.

My example assumed the $30 going to payouts, in merch. Payouts don't bother me as much as players packs. But to be fair to TDs, it should be been something like, "Rather than charge me $50 and give me a $20 players pack (with $30 going to payouts), charge me $35, don't give a players pack, put $30 towards payouts and $5 profit.

So the TD still gets almost the same profit, on the $5 and $30 in merch, that he would have on $50 worth of players pack and payout.

Perfect. No players pack unless items are truly donated for promotional purposes (coupons, etc.)

 

[1978]

Why not? Worlds invites should be done like Beaver State Fling open sign ups. We will use advanced as an example. So if you put the points to get into world up to 1250 those player get there invites. Then like a month later send invites for players over 1000 points and so on.

The event for this is Am Nats. Have to qualify, then only people over a certain rating get in.

 

[1978]

Why have a tiered invite with tiers that would generate less than a full event?

If, for example, you have 500 spots at AmWorlds, and 25% of invited players tend to sign up, the first tier of invites should be 2,000 players. It wouldn't accomplish much to invite 400 people and get 100 entries; then another 400 people and get 100 entries; etc.

Prior to last year, it didn't matter a bit. Either you got an invite and went to Worlds, or didn't get an invite and went to Worlds, if you wanted to go. At the very least, the threshold for invites should be what is likely to fill the event, or a little less.

I think you are correct, however, I also think that it dilutes the prestige of the event. In your example, inviting 500 ppl get the best 100 in first. Inviting 2000 might mean only 50 of the best get in. Also the event doesnt "feel" as special. I mentioned Am Nats, and it is one of the reasons that I decided to go back. The "feel" of that event is so cool...and you know everyone there is rated 940ish or better OR played well in a good tournament to get there. Its a way better feeling to be invited to that than worlds when some people have 500 pts and some have 10000.

 

[smyith]

I think you are correct, however, I also think that it dilutes the prestige of the event. In your example, inviting 500 ppl get the best 100 in first. Inviting 2000 might mean only 50 of the best get in. Also the event doesnt "feel" as special. I mentioned Am Nats, and it is one of the reasons that I decided to go back. The "feel" of that event is so cool...and you know everyone there is rated 940ish or better OR played well in a good tournament to get there. Its a way better feeling to be invited to that than worlds when some people have 500 pts and some have 10000.

I have never had the goal of trying to get into worlds, theres never been a need to.
Am Nats however, has been the big one that I have always wanted to qualify for. The tournaments I know that are qualifiers I practice extra for, try harder, and care more. To me winning Am Nats is the pinnacle for an Am, Worlds not so much. And if you force that same prestige into Worlds it will fill. It may not happen the first year or two, but it will not take long for there to be that extra effort to qualify.

A pro example for you, the Vibram Open is a qualifier tournament. I would say 80% of the Pros that I know would go to Vibram over Worlds just for the prestige factor. And I know of 1 who will be attending Vibram over Worlds (which is only a 2hr drive away this year). That says something about the feeling of prestige when it comes ot invite/qualifier tournaments.

 

[elnino]

i think vibram is bigger than worlds also because it counts twice as much for the player of the year thing. so that makes it literally twice as important!

 

[AdamE]

In theory I like the idea DD is going with and think it is very good in a number of way

In reality it did at all not go down like it said in the OP at the DD event I played this weekend.
1. The Rec division did NOT get their money back in the players pack and play trophy only. Instead they got a 1 disc players pack and got paid out based on performance just like every other Am.

2. Ams did not receive a players pack voucher so they could pick whatever they want. Only one mold of disc was offered for the players pack so it was exactly the opposite since the only thing we got to choose was the color of the disc.

I don't have any complaints about the event itself, everything went just fine and I quite enjoyed it. But I did want to point out, in my experience at a DD event, it was nothing like how they described their events which "are all run almost identical".

We have experimented with several different models for our tournaments but as a whole, they are all run almost identical. Amateur players almost always receive a $15 merchandise voucher as their player pack so that they can pick out whatever they want. The recreational division was converted to trophy only for the 2012 season and remains that way for 2013. These recreational players usually pay around $35 and receive a players package worth well over that and often compete for additional prizes.

 

[Allurex]

In theory I like the idea DD is going with and think it is very good in a number of way

In reality it did at all not go down like it said in the OP at the DD event I played this weekend.
1. The Rec division did NOT get their money back in the players pack and play trophy only. Instead they got a 1 disc players pack and got paid out based on performance just like every other Am.

2. Ams did not receive a players pack voucher so they could pick whatever they want. Only one mold of disc was offered for the players pack so it was exactly the opposite since the only thing we got to choose was the color of the disc.

I don't have any complaints about the event itself, everything went just fine and I quite enjoyed it. But I did want to point out, in my experience at a DD event, it was nothing like how they described their events which "are all run almost identical".

I've been to a lot of DD events (they're big in this part of the country) and they were almost all run the way the OP described. I paid $30-40 and got $10 for merch as my player's pack.

A couple of weeks ago I played a tournament that was more like you described. We payed the same amount but instead of a voucher we got to pick out a new First Run DD Trespass. So it was worth more than $10 but less choice obviously.

I wonder if DD having their own discs will change the template for their events permanently.

 

[18Down]

When running as many tournies as they do I can see how some don't get the attention/support as others do. But kudos to them for running more tournies than probably any other crew!

 

[Mabuku1]

pics or it didn't happen?

 

[Paul25934]

pDDga!!

 

[optidiscic]

move up

 

[Allurex]

DD recently posted video from the 2011 GBO at the Emporia Country Club. May be your only look at this course if you've never played it before.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=FUDBVZfFd7Q

 

[spaceguy87]

So much for the naysayers

This tournament is filling fast.

 

[jenb]

Looking at the divisions we know are already full (Advanced Masters, Women's Advanced Masters, and Grandmasters) I'm a bit surprised at the difference in makeup of the fields compared to last year. In particular, I expected to see a few highly rated competitors, plus some family friends of highly rated competitors in other divisions, and the remaining spots filled by locals. But it looks like the more highly rated players are staying home, and that these smaller divisions are filling without spaces left fir locals to fill in. For example, look at the ratings if the three highest rated players in each division for last year and this year.

Advanced Masters 2012

977
970
967

Advanced Masters 2013

971
960
957

Women's Advanced Masters 2012

875
868
857

Women's Advanced Masters 2013

843
822
819

Senior Grandmasters 2012

953
933
931

Senior Grandmasters 2013

942
928
921

It also looks like Women's Grandmasters has only 1 spot left, so let's look at it too.

Women's Grandmasters 2012

875
867
849

Women's Grandmasters 2013

843
762
685

With the exception if men' grandmasters, the trend looks consistent, and the women's divisions appear to have been affected very significantly.

They say other sports have trophy only for ams, and that we should be able to attract top am competitors with trophy only as well. But other sports require ams to compete for the privilege of playing pro (golf, tennis, beach volleyball, etc.) or for lucrative endorsement opportunities (olympics). I don't know. That's just something to think about.

 

[DavidSauls]

Interesting, but there are other possible conclusions. I don't feel like researching, but among the possibilities that come to mind:

AmWorlds always has a disproportionate local representation.

Variations between average ratings from region to region (or the threshold at which players turn pro).

Higher rated players deciding not come, but making their decisions on other than payout. Travel distance from east & west coasts, a locale with less reputation than Charlotte, less-known courses, or other reasons.

Statistical anomaly.

It could be less about Emporia, and this year's payout, than Charlotte.

Not being a Pro-Am Worlds.

Of course, it could be the top-rated Ams being turned off by the payout system, too.

But I think you'd need to include more years, at various locations, to get a better idea.

 

[biscoe]

i doubt anyone who feels they have a chance to win a world title is staying home because they aren't guaranteed a bunch of plastic. i would think the second tier players would be more affected by trophy only.

 

[jenb]

i doubt anyone who feels they have a chance to win a world title is staying home because they aren't guaranteed a bunch of plastic. i would think the second tier players would be more affected by trophy only.

That's what I expected too.

 

[Bart]

Ams...like all other sports....should be ALL trophy only. If you want to play for more than trophys than there is a place to do that...in the PRO divisions...