Acceleration: Late or Smooth?

[dodgeball]

Isn't the hammer pound drill designed for that exact reason? I guess "putting in the work" would be actually going out and doing fieldwork, utilizing the things learned in the hammer pound drill.

In other words, working on the hammer pound drill and occasionally seeing the progress, if any, by actually throwing the discs instead of doing the drills.

Yes, I would agree that is was designed as a drill. But I also don't think u should design your whole throw around it like some on this board suggest. Because once u set foot on an actual field, u have a whole slew of other things that come into play that can't be just covered by this one drill/concept.

 

[Triflusal]

Yes, I would agree that is was designed as a drill. But I also don't think u should design your whole throw around it like some on this board suggest. Because once u set foot on an actual field, u have a whole slew of other things that come into play that can't be just covered by this one drill/concept.

that doesn't mean you throw the hammer pound out as soon as you add reachback or anything else. the whole point is to keep that feeling and only add things that strengthen it. Just because the drill doesn't teach an X step doesn't mean when you learn the X step the drill is not applicable.

 

[dodgeball]

that doesn't mean you throw the hammer pound out as soon as you add reachback or anything else. the whole point is to keep that feeling and only add things that strengthen it. Just because the drill doesn't teach an X step doesn't mean when you learn the X step the drill is not applicable.

Okay, if it really helps u. But when u say "the whole point is to keep that feeling and only add things that strengthen it," that's where I have a problem and where the whole hammer pound idea breaks down for me. It implies to me that u need a lot of trial and error to figure out what would work. Where instead u can just try and learn the fundamentals and go with tried and trued things that have been shown to work.

 

[Tyler_McGinnis]

Okay, if it really helps u. But when u say "the whole point is to keep that feeling and only add things that strengthen it," that's where I have a problem and where the whole hammer pound idea breaks down for me. It implies to me that u need a lot of trial and error to figure out what would work. Where instead u can just try and learn the fundamentals and go with tried and trued things that have been shown to work.

I would think that (more than likely) the things that strengthen the hammer pound feeling are the same as the good fundamentals you speak of learning. I think it's entirely possible to have "good form" and not be able to throw far (i.e. clean throw/release but little or no hit, this is a point I've been working through for a while). The hammer pound is just helping to teach the feeling of that last part of the throw (from my understanding).

 

[sloppydisc]

Agreed. I normally have good form I think. I can throw my putter, Fuse or Core on nice straight or controlled lines. But I'm not going to win any distance contests. Now combining form and snap/distance/power; that's the trick.

 

[Triflusal]

Okay, if it really helps u. But when u say "the whole point is to keep that feeling and only add things that strengthen it," that's where I have a problem and where the whole hammer pound idea breaks down for me. It implies to me that u need a lot of trial and error to figure out what would work. Where instead u can just try and learn the fundamentals and go with tried and trued things that have been shown to work.

having all of the right body positions won't make you throw far. lots of trial and error is exactly what is necessary, and is the easiest method for now. There are no shortcuts right now.

the fundamentals you speak of (tried and true ones) really are non existent. disc golf is still in a really early phase of learning what works and what doesn't, as proof by the great variety of throwing styles.

 

[sloppydisc]

Played two rounds today. Had no early or late acceleration. Very sad. Maybe it was the 84 thumbers in the first round that screwed me up.

 

[dodgeball]

Seems I'm outnumbered on this topic, lol, but I unphased.

I would think that (more than likely) the things that strengthen the hammer pound feeling are the same as the good fundamentals you speak of learning. I think it's entirely possible to have "good form" and not be able to throw far (i.e. clean throw/release but little or no hit, this is a point I've been working through for a while). The hammer pound is just helping to teach the feeling of that last part of the throw (from my understanding).

But would u agree that good form would not inhibit your ability to throw far? I would argue that not having solid fundamentals would inhibit your ability much more than not getting the last part exactly right. If u get everything else right, the last part becomes almost automatic.

having all of the right body positions won't make you throw far. lots of trial and error is exactly what is necessary, and is the easiest method for now. There are no shortcuts right now.

the fundamentals you speak of (tried and true ones) really are non existent. disc golf is still in a really early phase of learning what works and what doesn't, as proof by the great variety of throwing styles.

okay, but again, will having right body positions hinder or help your ability to throw far?? I don't doubt that some people can just 'hit it' or 'snap it' really hard at the end and have good results. But how could getting into the right positions, having good rotation, good weight shift, not help? I would say that most people need ALL of this to get their best results.

A lot of people might be attracted to the hammer pound because it does seem like a shortcut. To be fair, it IS probably easier to focus on just this last part of the throw. But how can not utilizing the WHOLE body not contribute to overall potential of a throw?

 

[Mike C]

I think the point is the hit is the most important part. You can have perfectly clean form but if you aren't getting good acceleration at the hit your Nukes will go as far as other players putters. Body positioning and what not is incredibly important, especially for distance throwing, but it's not the most essential part.

If u get everything else right, the last part becomes almost automatic.

In theory that might make sense but in real life I have found this to not be true. I know many local players who showed me the ropes when I first started that have very good form and can throw any disc on a straight, controlled line, but their distance isn't very good. One of the people I play with the most has perfect looking form but no acceleration at the hit, and struggles to break the 375'-400' barrier because of it. I know he's capable of it.

 

[dodgeball]

I think the point is the hit is the most important part.

Well maybe for people who already have a good hit.

One of the people I play with the most has perfect looking form but no acceleration at the hit, and struggles to break the 375'-400' barrier because of it. I know he's capable of it.

Don't u think it's quite possible that people don't have the same ability for this acceleration at the hit? Can u really teach somebody how to accelerate harder? Maybe, but my point is that there's more potential to improve on all the stuff that comes before it than that last, smallest part of the throw.

 

[Mike C]

Well maybe for people who already have a good hit.

For people who want to throw far, no matter what their current skill level is, the hit is quite important. The only people it's not important for are for people who do not care about distance. With a poor hit you will not be able to throw very far, it's a fact.

Don't u think it's quite possible that people don't have the same ability for this acceleration at the hit? Can u really teach somebody how to accelerate harder? Maybe, but my point is that there's more potential to improve on all the stuff that comes before it than that last, smallest part of the throw.

Of course, everyone is built different. But it's still an essential part of the throw. You can get good D without a good hit, but you can't get great D without a good hit. I think you can teach people by having them do drills that re-enforce good habits, like the right pec drill. It all comes down to timing. Anyone can pull their arm hard and throw a disc, but if you want to throw it really far you have to practice pulling at the proper time. It doesn't matter how hard of a pull you have if you start your pull too early.

 

[sidewinder22]

having all of the right body positions won't make you throw far. lots of trial and error is exactly what is necessary, and is the easiest method for now. There are no shortcuts right now.

the fundamentals you speak of (tried and true ones) really are non existent. disc golf is still in a really early phase of learning what works and what doesn't, as proof by the great variety of throwing styles.

I'm not exactly sure what anyone is arguing anymore but, this is the most contradictory statement of the year. Non-existent fundamentals and lots of trial and error is the easiest method. That's not a method, perhaps a method of mayhem. :doh: Damn Feldy and Climo for their Fundamentals DVD.

There are disc golf throwing fundamentals and mechanics just like all sports. When you examine the different styles and find similarities, those similarities are the fundamentals. The hammer pound drills are part of that, but there are more like elbow chop, delayed shoulder rotation, weight shift, balance, posture, and alignment. There are positions and fundamentals that work against producing "snap". Working from a standstill and the hit backward is the best way to learn as I typically suggest people do, but most don't have the patience and results may vary from that alone.

I agree there are no shortcuts, especially past 300'. You rarely ever see or hear about players making huge improvements in a practice session past 300'. I've played with some newbs that were throwing 200', I showed them the yo-yo hammer drill and had a few hit 300' in their next throw and others would hit 250'. Some people are just more athletically coordinated or gifted than others.

I've said this before and say it again, most players will not see 400' with a fairway driver. This is due to lack of patience to put in the work and/or lack of athletic ability. This happens in all sports, and why the top 10 or so female athletes beat 99% of male athletes. Anyone throwing a fairway driver 400' has probably put in a lot of work. There maybe a few freaks of nature like katchz, but I suspect his supreme ball golf swing translated well.

Those results are not much different than other sports. Once the average result has been achieved it is typically slow going to improve. You don't see pitchers going from 70mph to 90mph without a lot of work and mechanics analysis. Same with ball golfers.

IIRC Blake typically doesn't like to teach newbs, probably because their fundamentals aren't on par. When youth pitchers learn to throw like most other sports, they start from the ground up...stance, balance, footwork, weight shift. They first learn to use their lower body where all the power is generated to leverage the upper body and arm. Once they get that down, they then learn more advanced techniques like delayed shoulder rotation and wrist snap.

 

[kcplease]

Both. It should be a beautiful explosion of fury, like a car crash set to Beethoven.

Wonderful metaphor.

 

[Triflusal]

I'm not exactly sure what anyone is arguing anymore but, this is the most contradictory statement of the year. Non-existent fundamentals and lots of trial and error is the easiest method. That's not a method, perhaps a method of mayhem. :doh: Damn Feldy and Climo for their Fundamentals DVD.

There are disc golf throwing fundamentals and mechanics just like all sports. When you examine the different styles and find similarities, those similarities are the fundamentals. The hammer pound drills are part of that, but there are more like elbow chop, delayed shoulder rotation, weight shift, balance, posture, and alignment. There are positions and fundamentals that work against producing "snap". Working from a standstill and the hit backward is the best way to learn as I typically suggest people do, but most don't have the patience and results may vary from that alone.

I agree there are no shortcuts, especially past 300'. You rarely ever see or hear about players making huge improvements in a practice session past 300'. I've played with some newbs that were throwing 200', I showed them the yo-yo hammer drill and had a few hit 300' in their next throw and others would hit 250'. Some people are just more athletically coordinated or gifted than others.

I've said this before and say it again, most players will not see 400' with a fairway driver. This is due to lack of patience to put in the work and/or lack of athletic ability. This happens in all sports, and why the top 10 or so female athletes beat 99% of male athletes. Anyone throwing a fairway driver 400' has probably put in a lot of work. There maybe a few freaks of nature like katchz, but I suspect his supreme ball golf swing translated well.

Those results are not much different than other sports. Once the average result has been achieved it is typically slow going to improve. You don't see pitchers going from 70mph to 90mph without a lot of work and mechanics analysis. Same with ball golfers.

IIRC Blake typically doesn't like to teach newbs, probably because their fundamentals aren't on par. When youth pitchers learn to throw like most other sports, they start from the ground up...stance, balance, footwork, weight shift. They first learn to use their lower body where all the power is generated to leverage the upper body and arm. Once they get that down, they then learn more advanced techniques like delayed shoulder rotation and wrist snap.

I accidentally worded my post wrong. I didn't mean to say fundamentals were non existent, I meant that they vary widely. I meant "fundamentals" used as a concrete exact thing isn't quite right. There are a lot of variations in body positions possible.

I also said that good body positions won't make you throw far. That's not right either. I was sort of trying to drive a point home and misrepresented what I meant lol

 

[sidewinder22]

I accidentally worded my post wrong. I didn't mean to say fundamentals were non existent, I meant that they vary widely. I meant "fundamentals" used as a concrete exact thing isn't quite right. There are a lot of variations in body positions possible.

I also said that good body positions won't make you throw far. That's not right either. I was sort of trying to drive a point home and misrepresented what I meant lol

Most people are visual learners and we are trying to put together a feeling with a thousand variables in a throw that can't really be seen or explained well in words. As Bruce Lee said, "study all forms and be formless like water".

It helps to be young and healthy, and some people may not need good posture and mechanics, but I think it would increase smash factor and reduce injury as it has for me. I only broke my leg from crappy balance and posture. It's rare to see any top throwers that lose balance or in any un-athletic positions.

What I've been talking about is basically what Feldy preaches about being in athletic position and what I see most players struggling with as far as position. Feldy also talks about the end motion of the wrist, its not jerking back. He holds his wrist straight for a forward out release of massive momentum, as if throwing a hammer down that line.

 

[dodgeball]

Sidewinder, terrific post you had a few posts ago! I especially liked this:

IIRC Blake typically doesn't like to teach newbs, probably because their fundamentals aren't on par. When youth pitchers learn to throw like most other sports, they start from the ground up...stance, balance, footwork, weight shift. They first learn to use their lower body where all the power is generated to leverage the upper body and arm. Once they get that down, they then learn more advanced techniques like delayed shoulder rotation and wrist snap.

That's such gold and exactly what I was trying to get across in my previous posts in the thread, but much less successfully on my part, lol. And then this part is great too and brings it all together:

There are disc golf throwing fundamentals and mechanics just like all sports. When you examine the different styles and find similarities, those similarities are the fundamentals. The hammer pound drills are part of that, but there are more like elbow chop, delayed shoulder rotation, weight shift, balance, posture, and alignment. There are positions and fundamentals that work against producing "snap".

Then in your last post you talked about getting in the proper positions to reduce injury and this is SUCH an important point! Thankfully I never broke anything like u unfortunately did, but I would occasionally hurt my arm/shoulder. Now that I've learned how to utilize the lower half of my body more effectively, it's not such a worry for me.

On a personal note, I'd like to say thanks for the advice and contributions u have made to this board. I can't think of any other poster that has made a bigger impact on my game. So keep doing what ur doing and I'll be reading along!

 

[Triflusal]

this is a good thread

 

[Technohic]

Did someone post the Kachtz (spelling?) video on here yet? To me, for whatever reason the hit really stood out in his throw. I just remembered that and got back a lot of lost "power" I suffered from recently; but it's ok because it is helping me feel like I am getting closer to getting it now that I lost a semi-hit and got it back. It really is that important and I still am looking for the right timing to be able to maybe half hit.

 

[Okie-J]

Felberg? Never hears of him.

This is better example of jerk and snap and what I see most times on the course.

 

[811rv]

Felberg is actually Dave Feldberg aka The Borg, top rated disc golfer. He and Ken Climo holds record for highest rating average of 1046.

Very good thread here. As some of you know that I personally flew into Minnesota and have 2 hour session each with Blake T and Dan Beto last May. I was struggle to get picture of what I need to do via video analysis with Blake about 3 months before May and it was face to face session when I realized what a good hit is like (he had me using stacked grip for stronger grip). My grip was slipping most of time.

I have not had a breakthrough (i.e. 375+ with fairway drivers) yet but I am not giving up. My problem is I end up playing at the courses when I should be doing field work which most of progress happens.

I did check my radar gun (throwing gummy soft Ridge against wall of the house) and I was clocking around 44 to 48 MPH (launch speed) (100% all out effort). I know top pros's launch speed is around 70 MPH. In tournaments, I would play conservative (i.e. 85% to 90% effort) so my launch speed would be lower.

I did ask Blake for some kind of program/drills to improve distance driving and he did not come up with that. So it would be good idea to have program such as focus on good wrist action (hit) then build up from hit backwards (arm, then shoulders then hips, then legs) one a time. I do "yo yo" hammer drills every time as a warmup before I go out play a course.

Feldberg's form seems similar to swedish's techinque (i.e. hockey's slap shot) and it works well for him as he use leverage of body (leg, hip, shoulder) to generate strong leverage to generate strong hit. I think I would prefer Nikko's style/form as it seems more effective and easier to follow.

One thing for sure, it requires strong hit in order to have good launch speed and spin rate in order to have great distance.