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Am Payouts stifle pro growth?
- Thread starter DiscFifty
- Start date
Armus Patheticus
Garrulous Windbag
- Joined
- Aug 29, 2015
- Messages
- 400
Pro... hilarious.
Are you changing any other parameters in your hypothetical?
If tournaments had the same entry fees and players packs, but no payouts, maybe some people would move up....but maybe ams would play fewer tournaments, and there'd be fewer players in the pipeline. And for those that are there, the opportunity to pay an even higher entry fee for a small chance at winning something might not be enticing.
Of course, you could change any number of variables---entry fee, players pack, funds to pro purse---and get different results.
Fewer Ams might also mean lower purses in the Pro division, as TDs wouldn't be able to profit off the margin on all that merch, to either sponsor the pros or cover event expenses.
Perhaps instructive are the events where the Am division is trophy-only. Ams still fill those divisions, rather than moving up.
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The counter question would be, would it matter? Would having more of the current Ams play in Pro divisions do any good for the TD or the sport? The only people who I see would benefit would be the people who are already playing Pro and winning, as they'd have more money in the purse from the additional players who aren't winning anything.
If tournaments had the same entry fees and players packs, but no payouts, maybe some people would move up....but maybe ams would play fewer tournaments, and there'd be fewer players in the pipeline. And for those that are there, the opportunity to pay an even higher entry fee for a small chance at winning something might not be enticing.
Of course, you could change any number of variables---entry fee, players pack, funds to pro purse---and get different results.
Fewer Ams might also mean lower purses in the Pro division, as TDs wouldn't be able to profit off the margin on all that merch, to either sponsor the pros or cover event expenses.
Perhaps instructive are the events where the Am division is trophy-only. Ams still fill those divisions, rather than moving up.
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The counter question would be, would it matter? Would having more of the current Ams play in Pro divisions do any good for the TD or the sport? The only people who I see would benefit would be the people who are already playing Pro and winning, as they'd have more money in the purse from the additional players who aren't winning anything.
Am participation in tournaments would disappear, which would definitely cut pro payouts. For the events I see occurring in Portland /Biloxi /Boise, there don't seem to be enough pros to fill them (except BSF).
jeffmonty
* Ace Member *
- Joined
- Feb 20, 2010
- Messages
- 2,401
I personally am playing fewer tournaments already now because the entry fees have gone up so much to pad the pro purse. I don't care about paying pros, and I don't need more towels/minis/koozies in a player's pack, so the value isn't in it for me anymore. Why pay $70 to play with a bunch of guys I already pay nothing to play all the time with?
I'm alot more selective now.
I'm alot more selective now.
Maybe for individuals like myself, no. Truth be told, I don't really care. I'd just hope those who can compete at higher levels locally actually do, instead of "bagging."
I like playing tourneys. I will play in ~a handful a year. I have a goal to improve my rating and eventually make it to "pro" status. I hope to play pro at some point (aside from local unsanctioned events where pro is arbitrary; I usually play pro there, fwiw).
That being said, I have the desire to play more C tiers than higher, these days. I like to get in two rounds in a day, it is less expensive, and the overall demeanor is more lax.
Anyway, I think the future growth of the sport starts with the AMs. Get more people involved at lower levels and participation/attendance will grow.
I like playing tourneys. I will play in ~a handful a year. I have a goal to improve my rating and eventually make it to "pro" status. I hope to play pro at some point (aside from local unsanctioned events where pro is arbitrary; I usually play pro there, fwiw).
That being said, I have the desire to play more C tiers than higher, these days. I like to get in two rounds in a day, it is less expensive, and the overall demeanor is more lax.
Anyway, I think the future growth of the sport starts with the AMs. Get more people involved at lower levels and participation/attendance will grow.
I 100% agree.
I don't know how it is in your neck of the woods, but here in the DFW area we have plenty of ams that could compete with the local pros. A local pro I was chatting with the other day suggested if higher rated ams didn't win so much merch they would probably move up, hence my op. Would you rather win 3rd-5th place as a pro, or 1st-3rd as an am? I guess to some it depends on how much money or merch you might win. I am all on board for trophy only events. Those are pretty much non existent around here.
That just sounds like a local pro wanting to take their money.
It doesn't answer the question: Who else would benefit, by having more pros and fewer advanced players?
It strikes me as a solution without a problem.
It doesn't answer the question: Who else would benefit, by having more pros and fewer advanced players?
It strikes me as a solution without a problem.
discgolfer25
Birdie Member
I think the vast majority of AMs move up too early. My personal opinion is just because you can compete at the "local pro" level doesn't mean you should move up to pro. Most "local pros" would be better off playing advanced than moving up. I could see DFW being different bc of how large it is, but in the disc golf communities I have been in, people start hearing "bagger" and get pressured into moving up if they win one advanced tournament and are rated in the 930s. That person proceeds to move up when in reality, they are a middle of the pack AM nationally.
Even though one could argue that using the term "pro" may be a true misnomer, why does anyone (except really good "pros" who would monetarily benefit from such) wish to 'grow' the "pro" pool? I'm not really sure of the numbers but maybe about 15% of the tournament / organized players now are "pros"...? Can't think of too many other sports where the number is that high....
But in reality there are just several handfuls of REAL pros in the world of dg - the rest are just weekend gamblers.
But in reality there are just several handfuls of REAL pros in the world of dg - the rest are just weekend gamblers.
Improbably
Eagle Member
Would there be more players turning pro (or at least sooner?) if ams didn't get pay outs such as merch, player packs, etc?opcorn:
Inferring from the phrasing of your question, you consider more players turning pro a good thing. Is that correct?
CaptainAnhyzer
* Ace Member *
NEVER, in my ten years as a TD would i EVER have thought that padding the pro purse with Am entry fees was a good idea. :thmbdown:
I personally think that the PDGA should specifically ban this practice.
VictorB
* Ace Member *
I'm getting the feeling that a lot people that play tournaments don't really understand how the payouts work, even a little bit. Not you specifically, just quoted to emphasize what an actual TD would say about this "problem"
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This exactly. I'm playing less due to the rising entry fees.
Cgkdisc
.:Hall of Fame Member:.
Sounds like some think it's the other way around, i.e., that the way Pro payouts are generated is stifling Amateur growth?opcorn:
opcorn:Let's be clear here instead of continuing to perpetuate the falsehood that TDs are routinely taking from the ams to give to the pros. Using the retail profit on am prizes and player pack items as added cash in the pro division is not padding the pro purse with am entry fees. It's padding the pro purse with club/vendor/TD profits. There is ZERO reason for the PDGA to ban this practice.
I'm all for the discussion of reducing amateur entry fees and reducing the swag/prize arms race that has been building and building for decades now, but can we do it in good faith without mis-characterizing how things work for most tournaments?
biscoe
* Ace Member *
Amen.
biscoe
* Ace Member *
The fact that players don't turn pro as rapidly now as they once did is a good thing for all involved other than the 980 local pro guys. it is merely a correction to the ass backwards way the "sport" began when there were pros but no ams. I believe pro divisions other than at the big events are going to continue to decline for a while. The ams who have a chance to accomplish anything in the pro divisions continue to move up in this area- the ones who are already peaking and don't have much chance of pro success no longer are- nothing wrong with that.
riltim
Eagle Member
From a consumer perspective if the TD is charging me $40 and giving $10 to the Open payout he could have just charged me $30 and added nothing. I don't gain anything from my extra $10 going to the open field.
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