Appointed Certified Official

[TheStray]

I was at a tier A event this weekend and was on the top card for my division in the last round of 4 for the weekend and hadn't gotten a chance to play with 2 of the players on the card. Was doing okay for the first couple holes and then just started to fall apart. I was getting into situations where my footing was really taking it's toll because I was close to OB or in a tree or something but I was spending a lot of time and special care to make sure that I was observing the proper stance rules, so I felt like I should expect the same from the rest of the players.

I observed the person that was in second place for the tournament repeatedly doing what she was calling a jump putt (basically jumping from her marked lie outside the putting circle and releasing the disc in mid-air) and I finally decided to ask her is she would watch her footing and ensure that the disc is out of her hand prior to leaving the point of contact behind her disc marker, no warning, just friendly rule reminding here. At which time she began to huff and puff and tell me that she only needed to make sure that the disc was out of her hand prior to touching the ground again and "how else would it be possible to do a jump putt if you couldn't jump through the air" I simply replied "that's my point, I'm not sure what you're doing but quit doing it"

Next thing I know I have a pro who was playing a couple tees over telling me that the disc just had to be out of her hand prior to her touching the ground again. I'm pretty sure this guy is married to the person that I was just telling to mind her footing but at any rate I told him he wasnt on our card and to pretty much take a hike, to which he claimed he could make a ruling because he was a "certified official". At that point I asked everyone to calm down as I wasn't warning anyone I was just asking this person to watch their footing.

He told his wife or whatever she is that she shouldn't listen to me and just play her game and then under his breath called me an ass. That was pretty much the end of the altercation. I continued to watch her do her little jump throw after she just couldn't stand to not do it anymore but just kept my mouth shut.

In hindsight I have a couple questions, had I actually made a warning:

Who does have the right to make rulings or calls? My understanding is that it's an "appointed" official. To my knowledge I've never seen a list of "appointed" officials for a tournament or heard an announcement by the TD explaining who actaully was appointed for an event. After reviewing the rules my interpretation is that this guy didn't have the right to say anything and should have left it up to the card to decide amongst themselves.

Was this even a a situation that would have called for a ruling? It's my understanding that you dont need to have consensus on the card for a stance violation warning if it doesn't involve a penalty, however she would have had to rethrow her shot. I also wouldn't need someone to tell me the rules I would need an official to be observing the player and make a decision on whether the disc was out of her hand prior to her leaving her point of contact.

If there's 4 players on the card and I give a player a legitimate warning that does involve a penalty, what happens when the other 2 players choose not to be involved? Is it different if it doesn't involve a penalty?

Thanks in advance.

 

[bradharris]

First of all, this is a reason to always carry a rulebook. The rules are very clear that at the time of release, players must have at least one supporting point on the ground, and all supporting points must be behind the lie. All you would've had to do is pull out the rulebook, point out that rule and there would be no debate.

Second, don't be nice about it. That's a situation where an official warning is absolutely warranted.

Thirdly, a spectator cannot make rules calls. In this case, the guy was just that, a spectator. I have seen cases, particularly in playoffs, where the TD will assign someone to be a marshall, which gives them the authority to make rules calls. But generally speaking, just because you pass the rules exam doesn't mean you can make calls at any time on anyone.

 

[_MTL_]

Was this even a a situation that would have called for a ruling? It's my understanding that you dont need to have consensus on the card for a stance violation warning if it doesn't involve a penalty, however she would have had to rethrow her shot. I also wouldn't need someone to tell me the rules I would need an official to be observing the player and make a decision on whether the disc was out of her hand prior to her leaving her point of contact.

If there's 4 players on the card and I give a player a legitimate warning that does involve a penalty, what happens when the other 2 players choose not to be involved? Is it different if it doesn't involve a penalty?

Thanks in advance.

You are correct, no second was needed for a non-penalty rethrow.

If it is a call that requires a second and no one seconds it, then the call is voided and the throw is then determined legal.

A certified official from other groups outside of the division is allowed to make calls, but it's pretty rare that should ever happen, especially considering that they were related.

 

[_MTL_]

Thirdly, a spectator cannot make rules calls. In this case, the guy was just that, a spectator. I have seen cases, particularly in playoffs, where the TD will assign someone to be a marshall, which gives them the authority to make rules calls. But generally speaking, just because you pass the rules exam doesn't mean you can make calls at any time on anyone.

This last part is incorrect. You technically can. However I don't think it should ever happen. But I've been spectating before and been asked to make calls by the group.

 

[grodney]

Thirdly, a spectator cannot make rules calls.

Do you have an official publication of this? Years ago, the Rules Committee specifically stated that ANY certified official can make a call, even if just a spectator.

(Dumbest thing I've ever heard, but that's what they said.)

 

[NOStheBOSS]

Yep, always have a rulebook on you. When a situation like this happens, you read the rule word for word and they have no argument. When someone calls a BS rule on you, you just hand them the rulebook and say "if you can find it in there then I'll take a stroke" and they will either give it up or look for it and not find it.

Everyone knows what assuming does, don't THINK something is a rule, KNOW it is a rule.

 

[Jay Dub]

First of all, this is a reason to always carry a rulebook. The rules are very clear that at the time of release, players must have at least one supporting point on the ground, and all supporting points must be behind the lie. All you would've had to do is pull out the rulebook, point out that rule and there would be no debate.

This please.

 

[bradharris]

Do you have an official publication of this? Years ago, the Rules Committee specifically stated that ANY certified official can make a call, even if just a spectator.

(Dumbest thing I've ever heard, but that's what they said.)

Really??

So since I've taken the rules exam, I can call a foot fault from the gallery at the Vibram Open in a couple weeks??

 

[_MTL_]

Really??

So since I've taken the rules exam, I can call a foot fault from the gallery at the Vibram Open in a couple weeks??

Correct. However I wouldn't ever suggest anyone doing it. But you technically can.

 

[_MTL_]

Yep, always have a rulebook on you. When a situation like this happens, you read the rule word for word and they have no argument. When someone calls a BS rule on you, you just hand them the rulebook and say "if you can find it in there then I'll take a stroke" and they will either give it up or look for it and not find it.

Everyone knows what assuming does, don't THINK something is a rule, KNOW it is a rule.

I had someone call something on me once that wasn't a rule. Which made me LOL b/c someone actually said that I didn't know the rules.

So I asked to see a rule book and he said he didn't have one. So I pulled mine out, showed him where what I did was perfectly legal and then I asked him the same question I ask anyone when they are wrong with rules.

"Why do I know the rules but have a rule book and you don't know the rules but don't have a rule book?"

 

[TheStray]

The reason why I used the term appointed was becasue of section 1.11 (D) out of the competiontion manual:

Non-playing certified officials appointed by the Tournament Director may actively make rulings during any tournament play that they witness. If an appointed official competes in the tournament, he or she may not officiate for any ruling within his or her own division. The official's ruling supersedes the ruling of the group, but an appeal may be made to the Tournament Director. The Tournament Director may empower non-certified officials to act as spotters for a specific spotting purpose. The ruling of such a spotter supersedes the ruling of the group.


Makes it sound like the Tournament Director must actually make appointments.

 

[grodney]

Correct. However I wouldn't ever suggest anyone doing it. But you technically can.

Why not? I mean, for the integrity of the game, and as a certified official, aren't you almost OBLIGATED to? Why else would a certified spectator be able to make a call?

Again, this is a super dumb policy, but if that's going to be the policy, why would you discourage doing it?

 

[bradharris]

From the Competition Manual Section 1.11 Officials:

Non-playing certified officials appointed by the Tournament Director may actively make rulings during any tournament play that they witness. If an appointed official competes in the tournament, he or she may not officiate for any ruling within his or her own division. The official's ruling supersedes the ruling of the group, but an appeal may be made to the Tournament Director. The Tournament Director may empower non-certified officials to act as spotters for a specific spotting purpose. The ruling of such a spotter supersedes the ruling of the group.

To make rulings, you must be specifically appointed by the TD.

 

[grodney]

Hmmm, yep, that's the way it reads to me. What say you MTL?

 

[_MTL_]

This def. completely conteracts what the Rules Committee stated a few years ago and appears they did change it.

But yes, this appears correct.

Perfect example of why a rule book is always needed. I really know the stuff up and down and I was just incorrect about this. These things def. change year to year...

 

[Agricolae]

A bit of drift here, but since Robert is hanging around ...

Does PDGA issue some sort of confirmation, card, etc., upon passing the officials exam? I've taken it, passed it, and the only confirmation I received was a $10 debit to my credit card.

Is there really any value to doing this other than getting serious about knowing the rules and/or being able to use and interpret the rulebook, being able to TD PDGA events, and/or play in NT's or Majors?

 

[NOStheBOSS]

I had someone call something on me once that wasn't a rule. Which made me LOL b/c someone actually said that I didn't know the rules.

So I asked to see a rule book and he said he didn't have one. So I pulled mine out, showed him where what I did was perfectly legal and then I asked him the same question I ask anyone when they are wrong with rules.

"Why do I know the rules but have a rule book and you don't know the rules but don't have a rule book?"

People just have this ingrained into them from years of playing sports at the Rec or Competitive level. Especially basketball here in KY. As an official, I'm constantly hearing about how I don't know the rules from people who have never seen an actual rulebook. I've read through it multiple times and passed the official's exam, and then spent a good deal of my own time learning and gaining experience with the game of basketball. And yet they always heard that "you can't catch your own airball or it's a travel" and so it must be a rule

 

[_MTL_]

A bit of drift here, but since Robert is hanging around ...

Does PDGA issue some sort of confirmation, card, etc., upon passing the officials exam? I've taken it, passed it, and the only confirmation I received was a $10 debit to my credit card.

Is there really any value to doing this other than getting serious about knowing the rules and/or being able to use and interpret the rulebook, being able to TD PDGA events, and/or play in NT's or Majors?

In the past they did issue a card. I still have mine. I don't think it is issued anymore (you can see online who is an official).

Outside of the things you listed, there is no other value on the personal gain side of things. But to a tournament director, having officials at your event is a good thing and certainly is an assett, so there is value to the sport.

 

[JC17393]

A bit of drift here, but since Robert is hanging around ...

Does PDGA issue some sort of confirmation, card, etc., upon passing the officials exam? I've taken it, passed it, and the only confirmation I received was a $10 debit to my credit card.

Is there really any value to doing this other than getting serious about knowing the rules and/or being able to use and interpret the rulebook, being able to TD PDGA events, and/or play in NT's or Majors?

They used to issue cards. They don't any longer. I think they should, but I guess with adding the NT/Major thing to the equation, that greatly increased the number of certified officials. Perhaps they should add a notation to the regular membership cards for those that have passed the test.

As for the value, you need more value than what you listed for a $10 test that is supposedly only required every three years? I say supposedly because I was first certified in 2000 and went through two rules updates over ten years before they said I had to test again despite initially being told retesting would be necessary with every rule book update.

I think the privilege of running tournaments and playing NT/Major events is worth the $10. Knowing the rules and being able to use the rule book are things you don't need to be an official to do. In fact, they are things you should be doing regardless of being an official if you want to play any sanctioned event. IMO, passing the test should be an absolute breeze for any PDGA member or frankly anyone who is even semi-serious about playing competitively. The book is neither long nor complicated. Easiest test in the world to pass, IMO.

 

[Agricolae]

I think the privilege of running tournaments and playing NT/Major events is worth the $10. Knowing the rules and being able to use the rule book are things you don't need to be an official to do. In fact, they are things you should be doing regardless of being an official if you want to play any sanctioned event. IMO, passing the test should be an absolute breeze for any PDGA member or frankly anyone who is even semi-serious about playing competitively. The book is neither long nor complicated. Easiest test in the world to pass, IMO.

Agreed; on all points.

In the past they did issue a card. I still have mine. I don't think it is issued anymore (you can see online who is an official).

Do you know where online this is listed? I couldn't find it on my PDGA member page and a search of "certified officials" on the PDGA site didn't help locate a list.

TIA