Ball Golf Course Tolerance

[VictorB]

While open ball golf courses are a little boring to watch, I look at the tour like a Macro-level tournament.

You want to test all aspects of the top players game over the course of the tour. Think about worlds at Smuggler's last year. Nice balance of open and wooded. So while it's not 100% my preference, I do understand the need to have all different style of courses over the entire NT/DGPT.

 

[Shamis]

I do find open courses with lots of roped OB very fun to play, but I agree they aren't as good to watch. However, they are MUCH easier to film, which might be contributing to the trend.

 

[JC17393]

I do find open courses with lots of roped OB very fun to play, but I agree they aren't as good to watch. However, they are MUCH easier to film, which might be contributing to the trend.

This is a very good point. I've never been philosophically opposed to lots of roped OB (my own course has a fair share of it), but I certainly gained much more respect and appreciation for Winthrop Gold after having played it versus before I ever set foot on the grounds.

One thing about it that I still don't think gets the appreciation it deserves is that while it has many holes where there are few obstructions for the disc in flight, it challenges players to take care and notice of how and where the disc lands. I don't just mean whether it lands inside the ropes or not, but whether it lands flat or not. Whether the throw fades into the slope of the hill or with the slope of the hill. Or whether it is a slower speed disc that will grab when it lands rather than skip or catch edge and roll. It's something that few courses I've ever played or seen played seem to consider, but the designers at USDGC absolutely do. And it's something subtle enough that casual observers or even seasoned players may not pick up on it when watching, even in-person.

 

[NoFoxDG]

While open ball golf courses are a little boring to watch, I look at the tour like a Macro-level tournament.

You want to test all aspects of the top players game over the course of the tour.

I have to second this sentiment. I'm admittedly a VERY new fan of the sport, I've been watching for about 2-3 months, and playing all of 3-4 weeks, but during that time I have been consuming DG coverage voraciously, and watched the entirety of the GBO live.

I don't mind the BG courses that much, though I admittedly enjoy seeing the more technical courses. The way I see it, the tour tests each player on all levels, and allows us to truly separate the well-rounded pros from the one-trick ponies. A well balanced course on each stop would be ideal, but is unrealistic.

I think it all has its place, and you're not a terrible or bad person for not watching the courses/holes you don't enjoy, but the choice is nice. I'd love to see more live coverage of all types of courses, as I feel that was what drew in the viewership: it was there.

There's a market for this kind of live coverage, same as people enjoy the quicker "Jomez Style" post coverage. The more options we have for consuming DG media, the easier it is to grow the sport, imo.

 

[mizunodave]

One thing about it that I still don't think gets the appreciation it deserves is that while it has many holes where there are few obstructions for the disc in flight, it challenges players to take care and notice of how and where the disc lands.

This made me realize that while there may not be any visible trees, the players have to throw just as tight of a line as if there were in order to land their disc at the right spot with the right angle. It's almost like there are a bunch of invisible trees and they're hitting those gaps.

1. Hit an early tree and drop in the rough. 2. Pitch out. 3. Throw upshot to the basket.

2. Skip out of bounds. 2. OB stroke. 3. Throw upshot to the basket.

It doesn't translate well on video without the trees to provide context but for the thrower it's more similar than I realized.

 

[Darkgreen]

I think open courses with roped OB makes for garbage disc golf for many reasons. However leaving that aside, even if you think it makes for good disc golf and if you think that is the reason why the organizers use golf courses then it is time to stop fooling yourself. The reason golf courses are used for larger disc golf events is because golf courses have the facilities to accommodate those events. Parking, potable running water, bathrooms, indoor meeting area and tourney central, data coverage, wifi, food. It isn't about the quality level of the course.
Just want to make it clear that just because a high level event is held at a certain place doesn't anoint that course unto greatness.

 

[giles]

I'm apparently in the minority here. I'm completely fine with ball golf courses for casual or tournament play. I've played several that were really great. I'll watch the live & post coverage regardless of the course, I like watching the elite play and appreciate the varied challenges that different courses provide. I'm ok with rope OB. It isn't aesthetically the best but I like it and the ability for it to be tweaked from one year to the next. I like sand traps/bunkers for disc golf. I don't care for the disc baskets being placed right behind a golf green as damage to a golf green would jeopardize the courses future as a disc golf course. I think we need a new term for "OB golf green".
All that said, I really wish Winthrop would just go ahead and make hole 17 a legitimate island. A couple hours with a excavator would do wonders for that hole.

 

[TimSyl]

I do find open courses with lots of roped OB very fun to play, but I agree they aren't as good to watch. However, they are MUCH easier to film, which might be contributing to the trend.

Incorrect. At least I know I've heard Ian from CCDG say open golf courses are more difficult to shoot. I believe Jonathan Gomez has said the same thing.

 

[JC17393]

Incorrect. At least I know I've heard Ian from CCDG say open golf courses are more difficult to shoot. I believe Jonathan Gomez has said the same thing.

For their style of filming, open courses are tougher to film. Specifically from the perspective of the catch cam. On a wooded fairway, the catch cam operator has to be fairly confident that all the shots are going to come on a particular line so he can set up in the best spot to catch those shots. In an open fairway, there's a whole variety of lines the players can take...hyzer, anhyzer, roller, forehand, backhand, etc. And the camera not only has to figure out which line the player is taking but also where to stand to best capture it. And if you have four different players throwing four different types of shots, the best place to stand won't be the same for all four.

The idea that open courses are better for filming I think is based in two antiquated notions. The first is from how ball golf tournaments are filmed and the expectation that disc golf should be filmed similarly. That is, "tower cameras" that don't really move around but rely on zoom and focus to cover a given hole. Can't really do that effectively if there are trees everywhere. The second is simply the technology of cameras. 15-20 years ago, all that was available was standard definition video tape. It made it harder to see and follow the discs in flight. So the less that could get in the way or obscure the view of the disc, the better.

Now with 1080p/4K cameras and what can be called a more guerrila filming style (cameras on the ground moving around for different angles and views), all those old concerns are out-of-date.

Wide open courses are still better from a gallery perspective simply because there's more room for a gallery to watch without potentially being in the way, but on the video side, there's no real benefit. At least until we get ESPN money to film and all those hard-wired cameras for the live TV broadcast need to be more stationary "tower" style.

 

[Horsman]

Since disc golf on ball golf courses isnt really a good representation of what disc golf is, should they be used in the world championships? What I mean is that most disc golf courses are not on ball golf courses. So is it really an accurate test of who the best disc golfer is?

 

[JC17393]

Since disc golf on ball golf courses isnt really a good representation of what disc golf is, should they be used in the world championships? What I mean is that most disc golf courses are not on ball golf courses. So is it really an accurate test of who the best disc golfer is?

How is it not a good representation? I've played plenty of disc golf courses in parks or on private property that weren't all that dissimilar an experience to playing on a ball golf course. Wide open fields, plenty of OB (both naturally occurring like water and manufactured with rope), elevation changes, etc.

As long as the course is designed well and provides adequate challenges for the players, does it matter if the property is usually used as a ball golf course or a farm or a public park?

 

[youdidwell]

I am not a big fan of the ball golf courses but I still watch them. Though GBO this year was a slog for me, even just Jomez coverage. The final round had excitement down the stretch but I didn't even care because I was so bored with the course by the 4th round I just wanted to know who won.

Anyhow i think the reason i like wooded courses more is because players tend to attack holes with a little more variety. Ball Golf courses there tends to be a more defined best plays. I dunno it is just more exciting to watch a disc carve through some trees than one needing to land on a proper angle to not skip OB.

 

[juju]

This thread, similar to frolf on traditional golf courses, makes me sleepy.

 

[Timthenchant3r]

I am not a big fan of the ball golf courses but I still watch them. Though GBO this year was a slog for me, even just Jomez coverage. The final round had excitement down the stretch but I didn't even care because I was so bored with the course by the 4th round I just wanted to know who won.

Anyhow i think the reason i like wooded courses more is because players tend to attack holes with a little more variety. Ball Golf courses there tends to be a more defined best plays. I dunno it is just more exciting to watch a disc carve through some trees than one needing to land on a proper angle to not skip OB.

I know the players like only playing one course (at least that is what I have heard). I think that 2 courses is way better for a 4 round tournament here. I didn't get nearly as frustrated when they played 2 at the country club and 2 at Jones East (i think). Even though I liked the rounds at Jones East more.

 

[Rumpled]

I think that there are many heavily wooded golf courses, unlike those used for the GBO and Utah Open, which would make great disc golf venues. What a ball golfer considers heavy rough in the trees would be considered well manicured fairways for us.

 

[Monocacy]

Ideally big-time tournaments would be held at course(s) that challenge all aspects of the players' games.

Unfortunately there are only so many of those courses.

Imo, etc.

 

[DavidSauls]

Ideally big-time tournaments would be held at course(s) that challenge all aspects of the players' games.

Unfortunately there are only so many of those courses.

Imo, etc.

And only so many places with people willing and able to put on big-time tournaments.

A scarcity of courses, a scarcity of hosts, and they're not going to coincide very often.

 

[araytx]

I wouldn't expect most other tournaments to do better than GBO, but that doesn't necessarily mean I think that people would rather watch a ball golf course. GBO has things going for it that other tournaments don't, namely it has the DD hype-train behind it. Some love it, others get annoyed by it, but there is no doubt that DD is everywhere with their media, hyping the crap out of their events.

Additionally, it's placed in a great time of year where a large part of the country is having hit or miss weather, so people aren't as likely to be out playing their own rounds. In fact it was snowing in much of the upper Midwest during the final round (personally it was the only reason I turned on the live feeds).

Well, in terms of evidence I guess we could make a poll... I think we need to create a new thread for that and we probably should. But ultimately I am stating my opinion about what is better to watch. Not only is it better to watch , but it is also a better test of skill to decide who is a better golfer. To test the best players against each other they should be required to throw all the shots of the game. This includes big hyzers, low line drives, annys, mids, tight technical shots, and everything else in between. Obviously this is restricted by the terrain available but these golf courses are very poor at requiring players throw such a variety of shots that keep the game interesting for both players and viewers. This is really what makes paul Mcbeth the best golfer today. You see some players that do well on open courses and others that do well on woods courses but Mcbeth can do well on any style of course.

A poll, unless there is coordinating data that it has properly sampled a representative group of all discgolfers wouldn't do the trick either.

A lot of people on here are just sharing opinions. Even when you preface it as if it were a fact (e.g., "let's face it, DG on wooded courses is better..." or "A good course should [insert do this]...") -- they are still just opinions. Mine is an opinion as well, I just used at least one data point to back it up. Those espousing the wooded course preference, a preference I absolutely respect as yours, have yet to tell me what evidence goes with that opinion.

Now back to clarifying, I've never stated that I think watching on a ball course is better (in general) or anything of the sort; I clearly said I like watching qualify disc golf (of any type). And I haven't (at least I hope I haven't) made any statement about ball golf courses in general. I've spoken specifically about this year's GBO on this year's Emporia Country Club dgc. I feel the changes made it a more balanced course, an exciting course, and one that challenges all the players skills at some point throughout it -- including the skill to handle different wind. And please allow me to add another data set to back that opinion up -- Steve's Par Talk data and accompanying analysis and comment. All that being said, I do agree that even a perfectly aligned par set is still part of my opinion on what makes it great. I get that. But then I go back to viewership. For THIS GBO on THIS course, there were more disc golf fans choosing to watch than ever before.

 

[Horsman]

How is it not a good representation? I've played plenty of disc golf courses in parks or on private property that weren't all that dissimilar an experience to playing on a ball golf course. Wide open fields, plenty of OB (both naturally occurring like water and manufactured with rope), elevation changes, etc.

As long as the course is designed well and provides adequate challenges for the players, does it matter if the property is usually used as a ball golf course or a farm or a public park?

imo. Its not a good representation because thats not what most disc golf courses are. Of course you can find examples to say otherwise but most disc golf courses are not on ball golf courses. And most disc golf courses set on ball golf courses are not a good mix of shots.

 

[Horsman]

But then I go back to viewership. For THIS GBO on THIS course, there were more disc golf fans choosing to watch than ever before.

DD does a very good job at spam marketing so its no surprise that viewership was so high and the coverage was also the best thing we have seen all year so when people tuned in they kept watching unlike all the pro tour events where a lot of us would tune in, see crappy coverage and then leave.