Breaking Bad Timing Habit

[Melonhusk]

I've been making a really concerted effort this summer to make my form as effective as it can be (and ideally gain distance and accuracy in the process), and the one thing that has seemed just completely impossible to get out of my muscle memory is beginning to pull the disc before my front foot is fully planted, often turning my shoulders in the process and making aiming my shots very difficult.

I see videos of pretty much every pro with elite distance beginning to shift their hips with their shoulders still completely turned and arm extended, seemingly until the rotation of their hips makes it impossible to keep them back any longer. I can go super slow in front of a mirror and copy this visually, feeling my way through how each moment of this movement, but when it comes to throwing even really slow, controlled practice shots I always run into the same problem: if I try to focus on good hips and bracing my timing is early, and if I try to focus on timing, my legs and hips forget what to do and my brace collapses.

I've attached two videos just so you all get a sense of where I'm at, one where I was focusing on good hip movement and off arm tucking and one where I was focusing on using my lats and not throwing as much with my shoulder, which I realized recently has also been a big problem for me but I've had a lot more luck addressing that. I have yet to put all the parts together perfectly, and definitely would welcome any advice on things I haven't mentioned and might not have picked up on, but I think what I'd really appreciate some insight on is just what it should feel like to nail this swing timing, and anything I can do to try to drill that feeling into my body.

Thanks!

 

[sidewinder22]

#2 lats looks a lot better.

Turn your head back and look at your thumb/disc pointed away from target. Should still be looking/pointed back when you plant front foot. Keep your eyes locked on your disc/thumb all the way back and forth.

 

[Melonhusk]

That definitely makes sense, I blew through my previous max distance that day - it was definitely revelatory in terms of the leverage I was feeling on the disc through the power pocket even though I knew I was still doing so much poorly.

Wow, such a simple idea but I definitely have not tried that and I can see in that video that the first part of my body to move early is my head; it's really the thing pulling my upper body forward. I just pulled up a bunch of slow motion drive videos and I'm now noticing how far into their weight shift all these pros keep their heads back. Thanks so much, I'll have to try that tomorrow.

 

[JKieb704]

Another way to think about it, which helps me... Keep your shoulders and your hips aligned; meanwhile, always keep the disc centered between those points as you reach back and accelerate through. This is less about timing and more about alignment, but I feel like this is the foundation of a good throw.

(I got this tip from J-Ray's clinic. I think that's his name, the trilogy guy.)

 

[Melonhusk]

Another way to think about it, which helps me... Keep your shoulders and your hips aligned; meanwhile, always keep the disc centered between those points as you reach back and accelerate through. This is less about timing and more about alignment, but I feel like this is the foundation of a good throw.

(I got this tip from J-Ray's clinic. I think that's his name, the trilogy guy.)

How do you mean, like aligned rotationally or vertically? Or both? And what do you mean by keeping the disc centered between them? Thanks for the advice!

 

[JKieb704]

It's easier to show, then to describe (see link below). I like to think about the outside edges of my hips aligning with my shoulders as I reach back and rotate through the throw. Basically, don't let the disc get too far ahead of your body's motion... it should always be between the 4 points created by the shoulders and the hips.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KI9tUrjjwXk&t=6s

 

[Melonhusk]

Ah, I think I see, yeah that is one of the big things I'm trying to get away from with improving my timing, is my arm and shoulders jumping the gun and getting ahead of my hips. I think it's partially so hard because I played ultimate for years before playing disc golf (and didn't really even have the best form for that), so the urge to "throw" actively with my arm is super heavily ingrained. I'll watch this when I get a chance for sure, thanks for linking!

 

[Lastchancer88]

Ah, I think I see, yeah that is one of the big things I'm trying to get away from with improving my timing, is my arm and shoulders jumping the gun and getting ahead of my hips. I think it's partially so hard because I played ultimate for years before playing disc golf (and didn't really even have the best form for that), so the urge to "throw" actively with my arm is super heavily ingrained. I'll watch this when I get a chance for sure, thanks for linking!

Check this out, it helped me understand the timing sequence a lot better.

https://www.dgcoursereview.com/forums/showthread.php?t=114639

 

[Melonhusk]

Oh I have been watching a ton of loopghost's videos since I found them a few weeks ago; the idea of focusing on keeping this "frame" intact until your elbow pivots out was pretty mindblowingly different than how I was conceiving my drives at the time and helped me a ton. Thanks for reminding me of that thread, there's so much good info to work through!

 

[Melonhusk]

Alright guys, so I managed to get out to the field a few more times and I think I'm finally timing my shoulders a little bit better. How do you all think it looks? I'm curious because I wasn't really seeing any distance gains, in fact I was throwing a bit shorter than last time (maxing out about 380 this time with drivers) in relatively calm conditions. So clearly there's work to be done still, I'm just not sure what to look for.





There's also this little issue I had. Every once in a while I'd just shank one off to the right, which obviously is not a unique issue but I always chalked it up to my timing issues or rounding. I'm a little confused with this one though, because I got it waayyy off to the right and I can't really see anything different about my form. Can anyone spot the issue? All I know is I was trying to be a bit taller, as it's a stable disc I was looking to throw flat.



Thanks again everyone, really appreciate the help!

 

[sidewinder22]

You are slowly falling to the left tee side off your rear foot/leg, instead of driving and dropping forward off the rear foot/leg with sudden shift between the feet landing more upright on front leg and body staying away from swing path.

Your tendency is to pull shots right because your body is drifting/pushing to the left across the swing path. Stay more centered, posture squeezed more upright striding down tight hallway, rather than spreading yourself out left/right down the tee.

 

[Melonhusk]

Ah ok, so it just needs to be a more explosive and decisive motion, my stride forward? I did notice my weight/posture was probably a bit back of center after the "x" portion of the x-step, is this part of the problem too? What do you mean by body staying away from swing path?

That's interesting, my tendency has been to think "oh, I'm releasing to the right, so I'll just compensate by striding more diagonally left and then it'll wind up straight." Are you saying this is actually what's making me pull it right in the first place?

Thanks as always for the help! I'll check those videos out.

 

[Melonhusk]

Alright so I had the chance to do those drills and study some more and hit the field again, and the results were mixed. I threw pretty bad, but I also had some throws that I think at least visually were some of the cleanest I've ever had. They made the disc go nowhere in a hurry though, so I was hoping maybe you guys could help me figure out what to do to start getting some distance back while maintaining the progress I made.

I think a big thing I realized was that I needed to completely rethink my x-step. I was just being too indecisive about my plant step, letting it become more of an eventual collision with the ground than an intentional and athletic step. I think that's a big reason my brace was collapsing me towards the left side of the teepad; I didn't know when exactly I was going to need to brace. On top of all this it made me keep my weight too far back. I don't think I got all the way there with the work I need to do on it, even after realizing all this, but it did start to help out.

Anyway, here's some video. I know it's not ideal that they're all from the back, but I was doing something completely different before I switched the angle so it didn't seem like much use to include those.





These first two I guess seem like the cleanest visually to me, but both were kind of nothing special. I think the Rhyno went about 290 and the Sphinx 320, so maybe the Rhyno throw was a bit better.



This one I include for an opposite reason; out of nowhere this one felt really different out of my hand. It really had that rubber band feeling to it where it just leapt out of my hand with no effort. Not only was it pulled off the right, though, my form in general seems a lot messier in this one. What did I do right?

Anyway, thanks as usual everyone!

 

[sidewinder22]

Stride left to right down the pad. Your Comet shot had a straighter stride, more rear leg kick to right. Rear foot should drive to the right inward behind front foot, not push to the left/stagger.

https://www.dgcoursereview.com/forums/showthread.php?t=137244

 

[Melonhusk]

Ohhh you're so right. With fresh eyes it's night and day how much better that is. I think on the whole my stride in that one was just a bit more compact and snappier, which probably just plays into this mental thing of having more control over my last step - brace can be more active than reactive. Am I right in thinking the reason that I pulled that one to the right was my shoulders turned a tiny bit early, effectively moving my aim point to the right? Maybe a bit of rounding too?
I've been trying to work on not falling into my swing path by just keeping my brace leg stiffer; I know my step has a fair amount of left-right stagger to it, which is very ingrained (again probably old ultimate habits), but I know it works for people like Simon, Tristan Tanner etc. so I'm hoping to work with it and just make sure I'm still shifting my weight down the teepad.

 

[sidewinder22]

Your rear arm/elbow/shoulder is flying out around to the left = pull shot to the right - right shoulder reacts by flying open to right instead of swinging forward. Need to anchor/post/squeeze your rear arm/elbow/shoulder forward into the front leg axis to be the center of rotation to swing the right shoulder/arm/disc out from.

https://www.dgcoursereview.com/forums/showthread.php?t=124523

Falling to the left has to do with the direction you are driving/falling off the rear leg. Not with how you brace on front leg. If you are insistent on Simon style then you got to do it right with right foot striding to the right inside rear foot and then around to left. You are just striding to the left out over your rear foot and not creating any internal torque/cocking hips.

 

[Melonhusk]

Ohhh I totally see what you mean. That's one of my number one little bad habits (of a seemingly endless list) and I have yet to get tucking my off arm to be one of those subconscious things I don't have to worry about when working on other things. It always works better when I do like you say, though.

Right I getcha, I guess I connected it to the brace just in that my brace suffers under the same circumstances in which I fall too much to the left: when I "fall" instead of intentionally stepping/driving. At least that's my best guess. Haha definitely not insistent on Simon style, I mean he's incredible obviously, I guess right now it just seems like he's someone who does roughly what I do but a whole lot better. Honestly if there's one person I study more than anyone right now it's Eagle, who - go figure - my form looks nothing like. But I love lately how compact and slow-then-explosive his motion has been, like this throw here [EDIT: seems like the time stamping is being a bit funky but I'm trying to link 9:57]:



That said, I will definitely revisit that crush the can video! It's good to know that's a problem too. Can't thank you enough man!

 

[Melonhusk]

EDIT2: Just read through that thread a bit and while I've seen people bring up the swim move and this clip before it never clicked for me how it might be for helping the weight transfer AND keeping the off-arm tucked in one motion. That's something I'll have to play around with, good stuff.

 

[sidewinder22]

Eagle strides dead straight to his trajectory, no pull hook hyzers.

 

[Melonhusk]

Oh no question, like I said if I'm emulating I'm not doing it very well lol. I think I watch him because to me it seems like he's just got the cleanest, quietest throw, with nothing extraneous or quirky going on. I'm no expert, but it seems pretty efficient to me.
I find it pretty hard to stride naturally in an almost-straight line like Eagle or Paul, I'll check out that Simon crush the can vid to see if I can do the staggered step the right way, if not I may have to try to break that habit.