Brodie Smith's Rules Mistake

[araytx]

https://i.imgur.com/LyBYICm.jpg
https://i.imgur.com/2PfdcGY.jpg
https://i.imgur.com/hQnACsM.jpg
(lie locations are approximate, of course)

A couple of important notes:
- He took a meter off the OB line before taking relief. As others have said, this is legal.
- Smith only took relief backwards by 5 or 8 feet.
- Hebenheimer specifically said "You don't get a meter the second time, though", which is correct.
- Hebenheimer walked behind him, checked out the line, checked out his new lie, and declared it legal.

All of those combine for me to say it looks legal to me. If he had gone farther backwards, like 20' or more, he would have run into the OB line again. However, only moving back 5' or 8' didn't really bring the OB fence back into play.

Judging solely from video, I would have said it looked "close enough to legal" to not complain about. Once Hebenheimer jumped in with his accurate knowledge of the rules and his line-check, I'm confident that it was legal.

So basically, it seems there is a consensus that the title of this thread is the thing that is incorrect.

 

[Chains Bailey]

How about when his caddy held down the branches of a tree so that Brodie could take his stance?

I would call that being helpful.

 

[robdeforge]

I would call that being helpful.

sure. and also against the rules

 

[Chains Bailey]

sure. and also against the rules

Please point out what rules were broken.

 

[Dcinmd]

Please point out what rules were broken.

803.1 Moving Obstacles

A. A player must choose the stance that results in the least movement of any obstacle that is a permanent or integral part of the course. Once a stance has been taken, the player may not move an obstacle in order to make room for a throwing motion. It is legal for a player's throwing motion to cause incidental movement of an obstacle.

B. A player is not allowed to move any obstacle on the course, with the following exceptions:

1. A player may move casual obstacles that are on the playing surface where a supporting point may be placed when taking a stance. A casual obstacle is any item or collection of loose debris (such as stones, leaves, twigs, or unconnected branches), or any item as designated by the Director.

2. A player may request that other people move themselves or their belongings.

3. A player may restore course equipment to its proper working order, including the removal of obstacles.

C. A player who moves any obstacle on the course other than as allowed above receives one penalty throw.

This includes caddies as part of Competition Manual which states.

3.05 Carts, Caddies and Groups

C. Players choosing to use a caddie will be solely responsible for their caddie's conduct from the two-minute signal until the player's scorecard is submitted. Any penalties for misconduct by a caddie (as defined in this section and in 3.03) will be applied to both player and caddie.

 

[Chains Bailey]

803.1 Moving Obstacles

A. A player must choose the stance that results in the least movement of any obstacle that is a permanent or integral part of the course. Once a stance has been taken, the player may not move an obstacle in order to make room for a throwing motion. It is legal for a player's throwing motion to cause incidental movement of an obstacle.

B. A player is not allowed to move any obstacle on the course, with the following exceptions:

1. A player may move casual obstacles that are on the playing surface where a supporting point may be placed when taking a stance. A casual obstacle is any item or collection of loose debris (such as stones, leaves, twigs, or unconnected branches), or any item as designated by the Director.

2. A player may request that other people move themselves or their belongings.

3. A player may restore course equipment to its proper working order, including the removal of obstacles.

C. A player who moves any obstacle on the course other than as allowed above receives one penalty throw.

This includes caddies as part of Competition Manual which states.

3.05 Carts, Caddies and Groups

C. Players choosing to use a caddie will be solely responsible for their caddie's conduct from the two-minute signal until the player's scorecard is submitted. Any penalties for misconduct by a caddie (as defined in this section and in 3.03) will be applied to both player and caddie.

His caddy did not break any of these rules.

 

[robdeforge]

His caddy did not break any of these rules.

3.05 B - A caddie must be at least 13 years of age and must comply with the same Official Rules of Disc Golf and Competition Manual their player must follow, including the dress code, although a caddie need not be a PDGA member nor Certified Official.

they broke the following rule:

303. A - A player must choose the stance that results in the least movement of any obstacle that is a permanent or integral part of the course. Once a stance has been taken, the player may not move an obstacle in order to make room for a throwing motion. It is legal for a player's throwing motion to cause incidental movement of an obstacle.

 

[txmxer]

they broke the following rule:

I went back and watched the incident.

They moved/bent the tree branch so Brodie could get in to the tree to take a stance.

Once he took his stance, he wasn't bending the branch.

I've seen other players work really hard and take awkward stance to avoid what they did.

BUT, IMO the rules don't actually address the approach to the stance., unless you look at the statement about moving loose debris. They moved an attached branch that returned to its natural position.

I don't know if that was a violation, but it is certainly not how others tend to play it.

 

[robdeforge]

I went back and watched the incident.

They moved/bent the tree branch so Brodie could get in to the tree to take a stance.

Once he took his stance, he wasn't bending the branch.

I've seen other players work really hard and take awkward stance to avoid what they did.

BUT, IMO the rules don't actually address the approach to the stance., unless you look at the statement about moving loose debris. They moved an attached branch that returned to its natural position.

I don't know if that was a violation, but it is certainly not how others tend to play it.

"A player must choose the stance that results in the least movement of any obstacle that is a permanent or integral part of the course." I feel that this addresses the approach to the stance, because the next sentence says "Once a stance has been taken, the player may not move an obstacle in order to make room for a throwing motion. It is legal for a player's throwing motion to cause incidental movement of an obstacle."

edit: also can you tell me what round/time it was at, just out of curiosity? I went back and tried to find it again myself but no luck lol

 

[txmxer]

"A player must choose the stance that results in the least movement of any obstacle that is a permanent or integral part of the course." I feel that this addresses the approach to the stance, because the next sentence says "Once a stance has been taken, the player may not move an obstacle in order to make room for a throwing motion. It is legal for a player's throwing motion to cause incidental movement of an obstacle."

edit: also can you tell me what round/time it was at, just out of curiosity? I went back and tried to find it again myself but no luck lol

I think it was just after 58 minutes of round 3.

I don't know the answer, but tend to agree with you that it violated the intent of the rule. I want our rules mavens to weigh in.

 

[Steve West]

I think it was just after 58 minutes of round 3.

I don't know the answer, but tend to agree with you that it violated the intent of the rule. I want our rules mavens to weigh in.

Sure. Here you go:

1.12 Tournament Officials
H. Video evidence or other media is not allowed for the purpose of making rulings for sanctioned play.

 

[robdeforge]

Sure. Here you go:

his card mates should have called it :thmbup:

 

[Rastnav]

his card mates should have called it :thmbup:

The question is more "should his card mates have called it?"

And I honestly don't know the answer. If I pull back a branch so that I do not have to duck under it as I get to my lie, is that a violation, even if it returns to its previous position ? I didn't think so. I always thought that the rule meant that I wasn't allowed to arrange myself when taking my stance such that I was moving stuff out of my swing or line of play when I executed my throw.

What if, in stretching out from my lie, my leg is bending branches and leaves that I could leave unbent if I didn't stretch out?

Is it mandated that I crawl to my lie, put a hand on it, and throw with only a wrist motion if branches will otherwise be moved?

Yes, I'm taking this to ridiculous extremes, but I'm trying to understand the actual rule, as the rules committee intends it to be applied.

 

[robdeforge]

Is it mandated that I crawl to my lie, put a hand on it, and throw with only a wrist motion if branches will otherwise be moved?

the answer to your question seems pretty clear to me

A player must choose the stance that results in the least movement of any obstacle that is a permanent or integral part of the course.

 

[biscoe]

the answer to your question seems pretty clear to me

The stance must result in least movement- says nothing about getting to the stance. Seems pretty clear to me too. How can the stance be defined prior to reaching it?

 

[robdeforge]

The stance must result in least movement- says nothing about getting to the stance. Seems pretty clear to me too. How can the stance be defined prior to reaching it?

if you're able to do anything you want while approaching your stance, what's to stop you from removing obstacles then?

 

[Rastnav]

A

The stance must result in least movement- says nothing about getting to the stance. Seems pretty clear to me too. How can the stance be defined prior to reaching it?

And what about your legs when you stretch out to touch your lie? Can they be pressing against brush, leaves, etc.?

What about grass that has a little bit of length to it? Would a more strict reading of the rule mean that executing any kind of run up on longer grass is a violation?

Again, I'm not advocating for anything in particular, I'm wondering about the intent of the rules committee.

 

[biscoe]

if you're able to do anything you want while approaching your stance, what's to stop you from removing obstacles then?

You may not move obstacles in either case per 803.01.B. Bending branches which then return to place to get into your lie is not moving an obstacle.

And what about your legs when you stretch out to touch your lie? Can they be pressing against brush, leaves, etc.?

What about grass that has a little bit of length to it? Would a more strict reading of the rule mean that executing any kind of run up on longer grass is a violation?

Again, I'm not advocating for anything in particular, I'm wondering about the intent of the rules committee.

I am not on the RC and Mike or Steve will correct me if wrong but my guess is that the rule is written as it is to prevent what was a common practice when I started playing many moons ago- backing into your lie and essentially holding all the foliage back with your body.

 

[krupicka]

You may not move obstacles in either case per 803.01.B. Bending branches which then return to place to get into your lie is not moving an obstacle.

I am not on the RC and Mike or Steve will correct me if wrong but my guess is that the rule is written as it is to prevent what was a common practice when I started playing many moons ago- backing into your lie and essentially holding all the foliage back with your body.

Correct.

 

[robdeforge]

Correct.

So it's OK to do what Brodie's caddie did, got it. as in it's OK to move a branch out of the way with your hands but not OK to back into it

live and learn!