Can't figure out what's holding me back

[Uncle Dougie]

Don't mean to speak for him, but our group goes out to Rockford a couple times a year. I know him and I were discussing heading over there this upcoming weekend for the Plastic Addicts Tourney. I don't think a tourney would be a good setting for form drilling though.

Will you be playing this weekend?

I can't make the tourney this weekend unfortunately which sucks because I really want one of those glow rc3's. I'm always out there though. Have fun out there!

 

[811rv]

http://youtu.be/7IiCQC7y7WQ Ken Jarvis, he threw DX Teebird 810 feet (under most ideal conditions)

Nice and relaxed form, nice weight transfer into lead foot.

I am working with Dan Sweet in Austin to improve my driving form. Getting better slowly esp with weight transfer and get everything flowing into ideal snap/hit. Takes time to unlearn old/bad form that I start with. In recent tournament last weekend, I pulled a muscle in my upper arm/shoulder area and reverted to old form after first round and kept going with 50% power only driving 200 feet or so just enough to cash out 1st place in Grandmaster (it was state deaf tourney) as my approach and putting game kept me in.

To be honest, I cannot wait for a day when I finally can throw 350' effortlessly with trio of MVP drivers.

 

[dekdo]

You gotta get some videos up, something has to be seriously wrong if your peaking under 250

 

[Oregon_Nole]

1st metacarpal for clarification.

That's all well and fine if you want to sound knowledgeable. I prefer hazy descriptors, they do a good job of muddying the subject....


:thmbup:

 

[BrotherDave]

I am definitely releasing because when I don't I grip lock and it goes right because Im not getting any snap at the end unless I force it

Grip lock is kind of what you want to do, you just want it to occur on time. But that's a similar sensation to what you're looking for. You'll have to mess around with your timing and pull to make it happen on time instead of late (griplock) or too early (slip).

I also do have plane issues as I throw nose up a lot. I think thats my footwork at least a bit though because when I really concentrate on planting and rotating on my front heel and not my front toe the disc flattens out and even comes out a bit low so most likely I'm probably even dropping my front shoulder a bit, but one thing at a time here lol.

Footwork and weight transfer is IMO one of the first things you should concentrate on b/c w/o it it janks up the rest of the throw, starts you off on a bad foot literally. That's why the Driving with Master Beto vid is so popular. Learn to feel the hit with the hammer pound drills then slowly work steps into it, starting from a standstill.

Especially on my wrist because I think thats the thing that confuses me the most. We are not supposed to cock it, I know that, keep it straight. Eventually it has to break down though right? At the end of the throw any I just supposed to let it release naturally or should I be snapping my wrist to get the pop? When I concentrate on keeping my WRIST in a straight line all the way through it seems to help, but I don't know if its right. Also its much easier in slowmo in the kitchen then out on the field lol

Your wrist should be loose like a hinge. As it comes into the pec area, it will close itself and the ensuing constant acceleration will open it back up naturally but if you can actively open the wrist it will give you a lot more power (active wrist extension). It's tricky, I struggle with that but even w/o active wrist extension you should be able to break 250' easily.

It's not that you should keep your wrist in a straight line so much as you should keep your pull (think forearm) on a straight line (and on plane), like pulling a train along a rail or starting a lawnmower.

 

[DG_Before_Breakfast]

As far as your arm hurting. When I was first practicing my form at home, I would hold a Disc, practice my form, but keep a hold of the Disc at the end so it didn't fly into my wall. That gave me Tennis Elbow. Avoid it.

There may be some technical issue with your form. You should research that, work on it, throw Mids and putters so you have a good baseline for what you can do with your form. But at some point you gotta pick a style that incorporates all the basics, and just work on that style. For most people it isn't like one day you throw 400 feet. You might get some spurts by breaking through on a particular issue, but it is just repeatedly throwing with the intent to get accuracy that builds rhythm, muscle memory, and where you can take that basis and tweak it with more/less pullback, footwork, pulling through harder, doing the hammer pound drill, etc.

 

[Nuke]

I am definitely releasing because when I don't I grip lock and it goes right because Im not getting any snap at the end unless I force it

Take a look at the photo, the flag is the basket. Now sure, the shot is a turnover, but the point remains the same. Most AMs open up their front shoulder way too soon and this reduces snap and causes you to strong arm the throw. Keeping your front side closed for as long as possible is one of the more unnatural feelings in DG. A lot of people have stories about grip locking on occasion and seeing the disc fly farther than any shot they've ever thrown. A good throw with snap is, in essence, a controlled grip lock. Not the most factual statement in here, but the point is valid I think.

This video should be quite helpful: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LffYBb1vQjQ

 

[loki993]

If you can drive down to Am Nats in June I'm sure I can find an hour or two to spend with you in a field somewhere and see what you're doing.

notroman throws his rocks 350ft+ on hyzer flip frozen ropes, has a deep understanding of technique and flight mechanics, and is a patient helpful teacher/coach. If you are serious about getting better I would jump at his offer.

He also just shot an unofficial 1037 rated round this past weekend!:thmbup:

Well I just looked it up the the site says the AM Nats are in Milford......Thats 20 minutes from my house....yes I could do that no problem. For whatever reason I was thinking they were in Illinois somewhere.

 

[DavidInIowa]

The #1 thing which helped me start throwing better was when I learned to focus on how I was using my thumb. How you use your thumb is vital to your grip. This sounds super obvious now, but if I hadn't stumbled across the idea on the internet I might never have realized it.

Because I have a weak grip I can't just pinch with the thumb tip like I see bigger people do. I must use the "thumb forward" grip described on this fine page. Using the fleshy base of the thumb gives me the control I need.

Experimenting with this may be rewarding for you. It certainly was for me.

 

[DG_Before_Breakfast]

Take a look at the photo, the flag is the basket. Now sure, the shot is a turnover, but the point remains the same. Most AMs open up their front shoulder way too soon and this reduces snap and causes you to strong arm the throw. Keeping your front side closed for as long as possible is one of the more unnatural feelings in DG. A lot of people have stories about grip locking on occasion and seeing the disc fly farther than any shot they've ever thrown. A good throw with snap is, in essence, a controlled grip lock. Not the most factual statement in here, but the point is valid I think.

This video should be quite helpful: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LffYBb1vQjQ

I am going to work on this in the field tomorrow morning with my buddy. My plan is to get as many discs as I can, get into the closed shoulder stance with a pole pointing towards the target, and have my buddy feed me one disc after another while I tweak my release until I get a feel for "snap". Then switch off with my buddy.

I do "yank" shots sometimes with "grip lock" that fly forever, so this might well be a breakthrough area for me.

We will probably also do the Dan Beto standstill version of this where you just throw it off you chest as hard as you can from a stand still.

I want to start reworking my drive from the Hit/Snap part. Then if I find I can throw 275 from a standstill, I'll know its my run up I need to work on. If I'm throw 150 feet from a standstill, I'll keep doing these drills and the hammer pound.


I have other areas I know I don't do quite right:

- I tend to Spin too much and not plant and push off with my legs. One video Feldberg calls this being a "Toe Turner". I'm not coming down and turning on my heel.

- My wrist can roll over instead of coming out smooth.

- I need to keep the Disc a bit closer to my body. I'm going for a straight line, but not always achieving it.

 

[loki993]

The #1 thing which helped me start throwing better was when I learned to focus on how I was using my thumb. How you use your thumb is vital to your grip. This sounds super obvious now, but if I hadn't stumbled across the idea on the internet I might never have realized it.

Because I have a weak grip I can't just pinch with the thumb tip like I see bigger people do. I must use the "thumb forward" grip described on this fine page. Using the fleshy base of the thumb gives me the control I need.

Experimenting with this may be rewarding for you. It certainly was for me.

I've messed with that a little, but not a ton so yeah I can give that a try. I usually try to get my thumb right at the point of the rim and flight plate and try to pinch my knuckle. Basically like everything tells you to do. Ill try that because if I just grab the disc naturally or comfortable my thumb automatically wants to do that. I have to actually bring it back and concisely try to pinch down where my finger is with the tip of my thumb.

I am going to work on this in the field tomorrow morning with my buddy. My plan is to get as many discs as I can, get into the closed shoulder stance with a pole pointing towards the target, and have my buddy feed me one disc after another while I tweak my release until I get a feel for "snap". Then switch off with my buddy.

I do "yank" shots sometimes with "grip lock" that fly forever, so this might well be a breakthrough area for me.

We will probably also do the Dan Beto standstill version of this where you just throw it off you chest as hard as you can from a stand still.

I want to start reworking my drive from the Hit/Snap part. Then if I find I can throw 275 from a standstill, I'll know its my run up I need to work on. If I'm throw 150 feet from a standstill, I'll keep doing these drills and the hammer pound.


I have other areas I know I don't do quite right:

- I tend to Spin too much and not plant and push off with my legs. One video Feldberg calls this being a "Toe Turner". I'm not coming down and turning on my heel.

- My wrist can roll over instead of coming out smooth.

- I need to keep the Disc a bit closer to my body. I'm going for a straight line, but not always achieving it.

The heel thing I can do, I just have to be conscious about it. There is a video around, someone posted it in another thread of mine. The hogan power drill. If you set your hips you will be on your heel, after that you just have to concentrate on turning on it. Its something I need to work on too because I don't always do it.

http://youtu.be/NNwSfz0_KDM

Sorry I cant get the video to embed, but thats the video.....

 

[DG_Before_Breakfast]

I'd highly recommend the Bradley Walker Closed Shoulder drill. I did about 50 throws that way and 25 of the Dan Beto standstill Pec throw. Then I went and tried to incorporate it in real drives and got my best drive ever on hole 19 at Dela.

Need to keep working on it on a weekly basis. But I think this really gives you a feel for holding on with a firm grip at the release point, having the Disc snap out while you provide resistance when your wrist extends, and keeping your shoulder closed until the last second. I am adjusting my release point this way and finding extra distance results. My Buzzzes were going over 250 from a standstill when I got this right. I have an issue where I hunch over and cause too much hyzer when I'm trying to throw flat, that I was able to work on during the drill.

 

[loki993]

I'm going to give it a try. I try the Beato pec drill and I don't know it just doesn't seem to work for me. I mean I can do it but it just doesn't feel right. Im not sure what it is. When I was trying it before I started using my shoulders a lot and my throw got round somehow.

I'm also going to take Notroman up on his offer at the AM Nats, if hes is still willing. It would be cool to go down and chance it out anyway. Ill already be checking out DGLO.

 

[811rv]

Beato pec drill is like after you pull the disc in from the reachback. Helps to get feeling of from inside to outside (i.e. opening up the shoulder and the forearm will pull out naturally). Other tip is getting weight transfer from back to front foot then throw from whole body (hips, shoulder, arm).

 

[loki993]

Ok heres a video, I got another one but my phones acting up and it wont play. I do see one thing off the bat and I'm releasing very nose up on every throw. I try to get that under control but I can't seem to. I sure that's affecting my distance but I don't know how much. I doubt it explains why I can't seem to get past 230 or so though.

Anyway here is the newest vid, let me know what you think:

http://youtu.be/8G1TxWyevK8

 

[knettles]

If you are throwing nose up, that can make a huge difference. Try getting more thumb pressure. Also, it could possibly be that you're throwing with your palm facing more to the left instead of upwards. Appreciate the video, but I think it'd be good to have one from the back so we can see the flight of the discs. Keep it up.

 

[craftsman]

Since your trying to improve your distance, here are my suggestions:

Expand your stance- your standing almost straight. You could never get an old busted lawnmower to start with a pull like that Get your body into a FULL reachback position- azz facing the target, left leg bent with your weight over it, right leg extended back to start your bodys twist, left arm relaxed by your side, and right arm extended far enough to stretch your back.

Pull in, not around- this is hard for most of us to get comfortable with and i think your stance has a lot to do with it; since your not activly using your body your almost forced to arm it. I think i told you about the strech band drill before, imo its a great way to get the feeling but you have to expand your stance to reap the benifits.
Pretend that your trying to elbow someone with all your might.

Grip and looseness- nose up definitely seems to be a problem for you . If you extend your arm out like youre throwing you want to see none of the top, for many throws im looking to see the inside rim.
Examine your grip and get used to cocking your wrist like a handshake.
Stay loose!! Tightening your muscles messes up your timing and leads to arming it.

Gl

 

[teemkey]

What craftsman said. Also, bend your knees and get into an "athletic" position. The push off from your back foot to initiate the weight transfer one of the most important sources of speed & power. If your knees aren't bent, you can't get that back leg power push.

Your arm seems to come through nice and flat, so I agree that the nose up problem is likely in your wrist angle. A popular suggestion is rolling your wrist clockwise (for rhbh) as if you are turning a key in a lock as part of your follow through after the hit. This gets your hand into the palm up position knettles recommends, and hence avoids allowing the wrist to turn counter-clockwise where the nose turns up (don't be a snob! .

 

[loki993]

If you are throwing nose up, that can make a huge difference. Try getting more thumb pressure. Also, it could possibly be that you're throwing with your palm facing more to the left instead of upwards. Appreciate the video, but I think it'd be good to have one from the back so we can see the flight of the discs. Keep it up.

I guess now that I think about it yeah I can see how it can make a big difference. No matter how fast the disc gets moving out of the hand it will just hit a wall of resistance pop up and lose all its momentum.

Since your trying to improve your distance, here are my suggestions:

Expand your stance- your standing almost straight. You could never get an old busted lawnmower to start with a pull like that Get your body into a FULL reachback position- azz facing the target, left leg bent with your weight over it, right leg extended back to start your bodys twist, left arm relaxed by your side, and right arm extended far enough to stretch your back.

Pull in, not around- this is hard for most of us to get comfortable with and i think your stance has a lot to do with it; since your not activly using your body your almost forced to arm it. I think i told you about the strech band drill before, imo its a great way to get the feeling but you have to expand your stance to reap the benifits.
Pretend that your trying to elbow someone with all your might.

Grip and looseness- nose up definitely seems to be a problem for you . If you extend your arm out like youre throwing you want to see none of the top, for many throws im looking to see the inside rim.
Examine your grip and get used to cocking your wrist like a handshake.
Stay loose!! Tightening your muscles messes up your timing and leads to arming it.

Gl

I have tried it and yes it does help. I probably need to work on it more. I've always felt that I actually did a decent job of pulling in and not getting round.

The reason I don't have a lot of legs in my throw yet is because I'm trying to work on the arm mechanics first and get that right. Seems like I may be close on that, save for the nose angle issues that need serious work, so I need to start to work more into it now.

What craftsman said. Also, bend your knees and get into an "athletic" position. The push off from your back foot to initiate the weight transfer one of the most important sources of speed & power. If your knees aren't bent, you can't get that back leg power push.

Your arm seems to come through nice and flat, so I agree that the nose up problem is likely in your wrist angle. A popular suggestion is rolling your wrist clockwise (for rhbh) as if you are turning a key in a lock as part of your follow through after the hit. This gets your hand into the palm up position knettles recommends, and hence avoids allowing the wrist to turn counter-clockwise where the nose turns up (don't be a snob! .

Interesting, see my palm is definitely not pointing up when I throw. If I did that I'd think it throw the disc into a serious anhyzer. I've also heard about wrist rolling and that was something I thought I wanted to avoid. Maybe that a different thing though.

Also I do try to bring the nose down but I must be bringing it back up int he throw somewhere. With the grip I have I can only point the nose down so much. The only way I can really get the nose down far is if I use a two finger grip and get the disc up in my fingers and nearly none of it in my palm like Robbie Bratten. But when I do that I can't get enough pressure on the disc to hold onto it reliably, it comes out early almost every time. I could try it again to see if its any different now.

Ill take some pics of my grip and some of the the different ones Ive tried. I had a second video where I showed my grip but that was the one that my phone messed up somehow.


Thanks for all the input so far though.

 

[sidewinder22]

I agree with everything above, except the wrist roll part. Going along the lines of bending knees and more athletic...you are over extending your reachback with your head past your rear leg bracing, so you have too much back and forth motion instead of rotation. That back and forth motion also slows rotation and whipping speed. Your head should be more centered between the feet throughout. You also get into a backward lean position at the hit, so your weight is not forward.

Past rear leg bracing on left, On right you can see much better tug of war stance, start the lawnmower: