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Compiling board posts into a coherent article

Blake_T1

* Ace Member *
Joined
May 31, 2004
Messages
5,824
Location
Minneapolis
for those who have or haven't followed my writings over the years, these past 6-7 weeks or so worth of my posts are probably the best things i have ever written on the subjects (primarily snap) and the people i have worked with for years tend to agree with that.

i'm way too f'n lazy to actually sit down and pound out a 10 page article on snap, but all the material is out there.

for those that aren't familiar w/ the "distance secrets" article, that was compiled by someone based on 40+ pages worth of a thread on the old pdga.com board (i was lucky enough to be a part of the Q&A).

i'm basically looking for something similar to that to be done with the stuff i have posted over the past 2 months across various threads. i tried to start new threads when introducing a new concept even though the basic ideas and materials were the same in order to keep a thread from going 40+ pages and having tons of backlogging.

if you would be interested in taking a stab at it, please let me know. the finished product would be posted on the main site as an article and we'd get joint credits.

i know this is a pretty big task and i might even be willing to have several people work on their own interpretation of it and post all of them. i can help a bit during the refining/proofing phase. you can make it as short or as long as you want to. e.g. if you just wanted to compile an article on the "pen drill" and what can be learned by it, that would be fine.
 
The disc golf wiki that was linked to by someone on the forums a few months back would probably be a good place to draw up the important information in one place before merging it all into an article.

I think that site is severely underused.
 
I'm leaving on a DG trip to Sweden today but lets work something out later when I get back if you're not inundated with help by then ;-) How should we go about writing the article?
 
i actually think it would be most beneficial as a whole if people made their own interpretations of things.

when people find a way to understand it in their own way, it often is the most beneficial overall. i can only come up with 74 ways to describe the same thing, and sometimes the 75th way is the key for someone to have it "click."

since everyone understands things differently, i thought it might be interesting to see what people were able to garner from it. i'd be willing to guess that most people will highlight different primary points.
 
Could you post topics you want people to cover?

Maybe if there are more people we could share the workload so that nobody needs to write a book. Smaller bits for any single author could lower the workload thus recruit more knowledgeable people. Since the workload won't take up too much time. And if the material needs more perspectives and wording in different ways we can append other ways to describe things from other writers later if there seems to be demand for it.
 
Blake,
You write as a scientist or engineer. But many of your readers don't have that background and probably miss much of what you are explaining. I know I do.

So for writing purposes your ghost writer/collaborator should be someone who has a background in science and the ability to break down and explain the technical terms used. And the patience to do this. In addition, drafts should be tested on different players to see how much they are actually absorbing.

The greater need is for you to do videos. The easiest way to understand motion is to watch it.

Imagine if I wanted to explain to someone how to tie a necktie. A hundred thousand words, carefully and skillfully chosen would be inferior to a simple video showing how to do it for most interested learners.
 
The Blake_T\masterbeato\Bradley\JR\JHern\??? combo has helped it get through my thick skull. I think it comes down to someone getting it that thinks similar to yourself. Someone who has went through the same problems as you. That'd be JHern for me. He helped me find the pieces that I was missing THEN the writings of everyone else started making literal sense. Before it was like I was reading about some mystical force!

Me and brother think a lot alike. When I started getting it I told him the things I was doing and shazzam he understood and did it. He was missing different pieces of the puzzle though. He had a great follow through, was using his lower body, but he wasn't pulling tight and was at a constant speed.

I've spent hours scouring this forum, so i'd be willing to help.

Here's something that will help others. It's a google custom search for dgr:

http://www.google.com/cse/home?cx=005189774772181701529:vbuwkceifi0
 
The Blake_T\masterbeato\Bradley\JR\JHern\??? combo has helped it get through my thick skull. I think it comes down to someone getting it that thinks similar to yourself. Someone who has went through the same problems as you. That'd be JHern for me. He helped me find the pieces that I was missing THEN the writings of everyone else started making literal sense. Before it was like I was reading about some mystical force!

i agree here, which is why i was kind of looking for people to summarize their takes on it. it could basically be a copy/paste with some editing and transition sentences and their own descriptions added as well.

You write as a scientist or engineer. But many of your readers don't have that background and probably miss much of what you are explaining. I know I do.

So for writing purposes your ghost writer/collaborator should be someone who has a background in science and the ability to break down and explain the technical terms used. And the patience to do this. In addition, drafts should be tested on different players to see how much they are actually absorbing.

my early articles were very feel-oriented. my writings for a couple of years got more scientific, but as a whole, i've tried to find a balance: explaining what happens and then coming up with a variety of feel-based methods to help facilitate those actions.

i don't think having someone throw a pen and observe their own finishing mechanics is very scientific. the main thing i have come to learn over the years is that worrying only about the science and perfect positions doesn't do much in the greater scheme of things compared to throwing with specific intent.

most of the topics i write about has been broken down in detail with explanation of technical terms in previous writings. e.g. i don't feel like explaining what OAT is for the 120th time every time i write about it.

everyone reaches understanding in their own way.

The greater need is for you to do videos. The easiest way to understand motion is to watch it.

Imagine if I wanted to explain to someone how to tie a necktie. A hundred thousand words, carefully and skillfully chosen would be inferior to a simple video showing how to do it for most interested learners.

with the topic of snap, which has been what i have been writing about most lately wouldn't benefit from a video because the people who don't get it don't know what to look for. the people that do get it, see it, but there has to be a way to bridge the gap conceptually. anyone who wants to see video of big snap simply has to be buy a DVD with kallstrom, feldberg, jenkins, brinster, etc. and watch that for hundreds of hours. they can slow it down, frame by frame it, capture still images, etc. but unless you have a basic understanding of flow, it won't do much for them. basically, with snap, there isn't anything you can really see unless you already know what it looks like.

my process is like saying the wrist has to open. then saying how the wrist opens, it opens because the forearm stops moving forwards (due to directional change). the people who have the potential to "get it" (the concept) are defined at this point. the guys who can get it will stand up and start swinging their arm, trying to see the forearm "stop" and the wrist extending. the guys who won't get it are the ones that either don't try to understand it or can't make this happen.

the next step is to integrate that into the throw, and so on (although these steps eliminate roughly 90% of the remaining players).


personally i think with tying a necktie, a video does better since there's no required timing component, no "trick" or feel needed, you just perform a set of actions at your own pace and under no time constraint. what about splitting firewood? show 2 videos of 1 guy who understands how to swing an axe powerfully and 1 guy who doesn't and there isn't much to look at without a conceptual backing for it. watching hitters in baseball, seeing guys that can drive it vs. slap it, watching a boxing match and being able to tell if a punch probably did real damage or not, etc. aren't things that the untrained eye can usually see.

keep in mind what i'm trying to teach here are not the basics. the basics have been documented in video already and written about time and time again.

i'm going for the most intricate of nuances, the hardest thing to "get" in disc golf, which is, big snap. right now there's guys who got it naturally and there's a slew of guys who'll never get it (the uncoachables). the smallest demographic by far are those who didn't get it naturally but were able to work their way to it.

basically, my goal is to find a method to achieve 1% success with getting people to learn to throw with snap (up from 0.1%).

i think something like this is more like learning a hard guitar solo or a difficult piano piece than tying a necktie. you can memorize what notes it should be, but then you just now what notes it needs. you can buy a steve vai video and watch him and his 10" fingers play it, mimicking his body and hand positions before finding out that you can't just copy him since your fingers are 5" long.

those who have learned a tough guitar solo know the process:
break it down into phrasings. learn the notes. find the basic positions. find a way to play through the notes in a manner that fits your hand. practice at a slow speed (whatever the fastest speed is you can do it at). gradually increase speed as you get more comfortable with it. learn how to transition to the next phrasing.

i see a disc golf throw in a similar light. if it was easy to do, everyone would be doing it perfectly. similarly, there aren't a lot of good guitar players out there since most people aren't disciplined enough to cover the process i listed above.

that being said, there are a handful of people that become good guitar players because of the process i listed above, and their disc golf equivalents are whom i would target with this article.
 
Blake_T said:
i'm way too f'n lazy to actually sit down and pound out a 10 page article on snap, but all the material is out there.

Based off some of our PM's and the knowledge that you were also PMing others at the same time, the above is most certainly NOT true. :lol:
 
Jeronimo said:
Blake_T said:
i'm way too f'n lazy to actually sit down and pound out a 10 page article on snap, but all the material is out there.

Based off some of our PM's and the knowledge that you were also PMing others at the same time, the above is most certainly NOT true. :lol:

He means *again* :)
 
Blake - is there anyway to provide the text to edit/compile to somebody or is going into the threads the only way? Do we have any specific threads in mind? I've read some really good stuff from you, as you said, but damned if I can recall where the hell it was.

I'd also add that Dan was hoping to put some new video together. If he does that, it might be really good to sort of take the written words and combine them with his video so that we sort of have "we discussed this and here's what it looks like" stuff.

Of course, I don't know what Dan's timetable is either. If I felt I had a proper understanding I might try it, but I haven't seen huge leaps in distance, so I can't say.
 
Mark Ellis said:
The greater need is for you to do videos. The easiest way to understand motion is to watch it.

+1x10^6 :mrgreen:

I would garner a HUGE amount more than just reading it. I know others would as well.

Maybe a video of someone doing something horribly (like myself, ahem) and point out what they're doing wrong vs someone with great form and explain and point out what they're doing right with backup and validation from all the advice you have. I think it would make a very powerful thing.
 
What needs to happen first, before any video is filmed, is to get all the knowledge into one repository or article.

Then, once you have the flow of information right, you could have certain people film different aspects of the article either with simple footage of that certain aspect being performed, or have footage of the verbal and visual together.

The key is that the written portion has links for the individual footage. Too often, people try to jam as much info into a video that it becomes over whelming to the viewer. Sure they should rewind and re-watch. repeatedly. over and over. until it bleeds and you have nightmares about it.

but i do digress. people just aren't like that. by writing a clear and concise article, and having smaller clips interspersed to show the point at hand (lets say wrist open) then the reader doesn't get overwhelmed.

this is from feedback of people i send to this site to view videos and articles. they claim that they are hit with too much information sometimes.
 
Mark Ellis said:
Blake, You write as a scientist or engineer. But many of your readers don't have that background and probably miss much of what you are explaining. I know I do.

I know I'm guilty of this as well. I try to tone down my technical language as much as possible and shoot for intuition, but its still hard. I was a student in physics, math, and natural sciences for over a decade, and after that I crossed a sort of threshold in my thinking (well, that was the purpose of it all, I suppose). But still it is very important to try and make things easier to understand for others.

Mark Ellis said:
So for writing purposes your ghost writer/collaborator should be someone who has a background in science and the ability to break down and explain the technical terms used. And the patience to do this. In addition, drafts should be tested on different players to see how much they are actually absorbing.

Boy would I love to have the time to do this! I just have to figure out a way to earn a salary or living to support my family (especially since I'm not a good enough player to make any cash at all in tournaments :lol: ).

Mark Ellis said:
The greater need is for you to do videos. The easiest way to understand motion is to watch it...Imagine if I wanted to explain to someone how to tie a necktie. A hundred thousand words, carefully and skillfully chosen would be inferior to a simple video showing how to do it for most interested learners.

Mark, you must have worked on the videos you have done, with some basic scripts, a plot, etc.. Could you tell us more about the process? Putting together the script/plan, deciding how to film it, doing it, and then of course editing...this is not straightforward, and requires even more work, perhaps, than just the distillation into coherence as an article that Blake is proposing above. But I agree it is definitely worthwhile!
 
this is from feedback of people i send to this site to view videos and articles. they claim that they are hit with too much information sometimes.

people often try to take too big of a bite at first. when i introduce someone to the sport i generally don't give them any tips until they are throwing 200' aside from crap like "keep it low" and "tilt it this way to make it curve." the whole "intro to disc golf" thing doesn't have much appeal to me anymore. the stuff i have been writing lately is graduate level in comparison.

anyone who's passed disc golf 101 knows things like the x-step, to keep the disc tight to your body during the pull, etc. and they are capable of passing on that knowledge. right now my focus is on DG401, and my efforts are to make the more elusive concepts understandable.

Then, once you have the flow of information right, you could have certain people film different aspects of the article either with simple footage of that certain aspect being performed, or have footage of the verbal and visual together.

The key is that the written portion has links for the individual footage. Too often, people try to jam as much info into a video that it becomes over whelming to the viewer. Sure they should rewind and re-watch. repeatedly. over and over. until it bleeds and you have nightmares about it.

you are correct that it would help, but honestly i don't think it will help as much as people think it will. a key example is the towel drill. i bet we have 20+ locker room nightmare caliber towel snappers on here that haven't been able to integrate a single concept of the towel snap into their dg throw. what's the next step? write an article on how to transition the towel drill into your throw? then get asked for a video... so we video tape someone snapping a towel and then using a similar motion to throw a disc. people will still moan and that shows where the point of failure really happens.

good:
snapping a towel then using a similar motion to snap a disc.

what most people do:
snapping a towel and then throw a disc exactly the same as they always do.

this happens with nearly anything that is difficult to do. being able to change the way you think about things, change the way your body moves, and then have the discipline to practice and improve the way that you move is the key to anything difficult that requires the body.

it's the same reason there aren't millions of black belts in the world, millions of superb sculptors, millions of virtuoso pianists, millions of professional golfers, etc.

Maybe a video of someone doing something horribly (like myself, ahem) and point out what they're doing wrong vs someone with great form and explain and point out what they're doing right with backup and validation from all the advice you have. I think it would make a very powerful thing.

i've done that in the past, and it's actually not a very powerful thing. i'm not trying to be sarcastic when i say this, but people never garner what they should from these types of comparisons.

if you want to punch like bruce lee, you don't go rent a bunch of bruce lee movies and try to mimic his punches, nor would comparing your own punch to his on video be of much benefit. everyone knows what a punch looks like and can throw something resembling a punch. you would be better off buying bruce lee's book, opening your mind, and applying bruce lee's CONCEPTS to your punch and then training your ass off using said concepts. after months/years of hard work you will have a punch that is much more bruce lee-like than anything you'd come up with purely trying to imitate.

Blake - is there anyway to provide the text to edit/compile to somebody or is going into the threads the only way? Do we have any specific threads in mind? I've read some really good stuff from you, as you said, but damned if I can recall where the hell it was.

no. the people who are already following the correct trail of breadcrumbs to the right goal know which ones they are. there's only like 6-8 threads with it (300', stick vs. disc, drive vs. slap, hitting it half way, slip vs. rip etc.), most of which are only a few pages long.

as i said, right now i'm basically wanting an article that will be relevant to the top 10% of disc golfers knowing it may guide 1 in 100 to the desired end result.

the #1 thing that people should try to garner about anything i write is to be open to adjusting the way you think about the throw and hope that your body is coordinated to follow suit with what your mind can learn.
 
Rough draft
Slip vs Rip The point of contact and the drive

98% of disc golfers have slip on nearly all of their drives (except for on grip locks).People that max out ~400' still throw this way, with lots of slip.The disc slips out on pretty much every throw but they have practiced their timing and positions allowing a slipped throw to come out straight. This is why you see some guys who peak at 380' straight but can grip lock 450'. When they grip locked it they actually hit it.

In baseball (and golf), there are hitters that SLAP the ball and hitters that DRIVE the ball. a hit that is "slapped" is where the ball bounces off of the bat (or club) after contact. These generally don't have home run power. a hit that is "driven" is where the bat makes contact with the ball and then the hitter releases his wrists, causing a huge acceleration of the bat (or club) head and the bat head will fling the ball off the bat. Basically, a slap has very little force imparted on it.The bat redirects the ball.a drive has high levels of force imparted on it. the bat stops the ball and then pushes the ball. this is the same for golf.

The only time when arm speed is of any importance is AFTER the point of contact.

The point of contact in a disc golf throw occurs when the disc enters the power zone, which is
basically when the disc reaches the right edge of the body. the disc should be close to the body. the wrist is usually curled and the elbow is at its maximum amount of bend here.This is the point of contact. the arm/disc must accelerate immediately after the point of contact. The release of the bat head is the tug that follows, uncoiling the elbow and launching the disc. This is how you drive a disc (aka throw with snap).

430' with a teebird is big snap.
430' with a destroyer is not big snap



If you throw like most people, when you are throwing hard you are likely reaching peak velocity as the disc passes the chest and slowing down as you enter and progress through the power zone.If this happens the inertia and centrifugal force will pull the disc from your hand.

This is especially noticeable with wider-rimmed discs. i know many people think they can grip wide rims harder since when they are waiving a disc around in their hand a wide rimmed discs feels "more stable," but in motion, you get much much greater leverage on a narrower rim (even if the narrow rimmed discs flops around in your hand when you are waiving it around).
This is also why i say grip strength is the only real strength you need to have to throw far.

To get a "tight" grip, the rim must be narrower than the middle segment of your index finger. The narrower the rim, the inside, basically from the center of the joint to the center of the joint. that part of the finger must be able to "clear" the rim width if you want to get a lot of leverage... basically, the pad/tip of the index finger must be able to extend beyond the rim wall and come "back at it" to get maximum strength.

low snap thrower gets the disc moving 70mph before launch but the disc launches at 40mph. 40/70mph = 0.571 (hits very little of it)

medium snap thrower gets the disc moving 70mph before launch but the disc launches at 55mph. 55/70mph = 0.786 (hits half of it)

high snap thrower gets the disc moving 70mph before launch but the disc launches at 68mph. 68/70 = 0.971 (hits most of it)

This is really where the key to everything comes in.



The difference between the wrist in half-hitting vs. full-hitting is:

With half-hitters, the wrist extends because the inertia/momentum of the disc forces the wrist open. It's basically a half-slip.

With full-hitters, the wrist extends actively and accelerates the leading edge of the disc to a VERY high velocity in a very short period of time.

What you are looking for is to transfer the force caused by the change in velocity of the part of the disc that becomes the lead edge as it whips around via wrist extension (the angular velocity is huge).It basically goes from like 0 to 100mph in like 4" of wrist movement.What you are looking for is to transfer the force caused by the change in velocity of the part of the disc that becomes the lead edge as it whips around via wrist extension (the angular velocity is huge). It basically goes from like 0 to 100mph in like 4" of wrist movement.

Basically, your goal should be to exert force on the disc. if done correctly, spin will happen.


Remember that this feeling is part of a process. at first you feel the disc pulling against the fingers, the second stage in the process is to feel the fingers pulling back against the disc and slinging it forward. The lock leaves during the pivot and the last thing you should feel is a slingshot off the index finger.
 
drledford93 said:
Mark Ellis said:
The greater need is for you to do videos. The easiest way to understand motion is to watch it.

+1x10^6 :mrgreen:

I would garner a HUGE amount more than just reading it. I know others would as well.

Maybe a video of someone doing something horribly (like myself, ahem) and point out what they're doing wrong vs someone with great form and explain and point out what they're doing right with backup and validation from all the advice you have. I think it would make a very powerful thing.

Well then you should go to the video critique section and look and read all the comments Blake has had on different throws. Because its already there. And with 99% certainty he has covered things you are not doing.
 
USAnarchy said:
What needs to happen first, before any video is filmed, is to get all the knowledge into one repository or article.

Then, once you have the flow of information right, you could have certain people film different aspects of the article either with simple footage of that certain aspect being performed, or have footage of the verbal and visual together.

The key is that the written portion has links for the individual footage. Too often, people try to jam as much info into a video that it becomes over whelming to the viewer. Sure they should rewind and re-watch. repeatedly. over and over. until it bleeds and you have nightmares about it.

but i do digress. people just aren't like that. by writing a clear and concise article, and having smaller clips interspersed to show the point at hand (lets say wrist open) then the reader doesn't get overwhelmed.

this is from feedback of people i send to this site to view videos and articles. they claim that they are hit with too much information sometimes.

^This.
 

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