Controversial way to get players to move up

[optidiscic]

Been thinking about this for awhile and wonder what everyone thinks

If all pros got a disc in their players pack just like the Ams (gasp) I hypothesize that the amount of borderline Ams who moved up to play against better players because at least they get something would actually offset the cost of giving away the extra plastic.

Of course theres gonna be the bitchy pros who will say I'd take the money wasted on plastic over the increased field but seriously do the math
typical tourney
20 pros x $40 entry = $800
20 pros x $8 a disc wholesale= $160
40 entry fee X 20 pros= $800
800-160=640
if just 5 borderline ams move up (conservative)
25 pros x $8 a disc wholesale=$200
25 pros x $40 entry=$1,000
$1,000 - $200= $800

so basically if you can get anymore than 1/4 to play up because you are offering a disc/players pack you are increasing the pro field and purse

I think this is the way to end bagging and it entices and rewards the lower pros and borderline ams for playing up

opcorn:

I fear that ingrained stupid hero worship adherence to the top pro in each region bitching about lower pros getting something will never allow this common sense approach to work

 

[bradharris]

This was tried at the Borderland Spring Fling recently. The Open entry fee was $10 for a 2-day event. There was an added option to get a players pack for another $10 or buy-in to the prize pool for an additional amount (can't remember the exact total).

The am divisions were all trophy-only with a players pack for $20.

So two major incentives for playing am (cost and prizes) were gone. A few people played up, but most players stayed in the division where they felt comfortable.

 

[optidiscic]

This was tried at the Borderland Spring Fling recently. The Open entry fee was $10 for a 2-day event. There was an added option to get a players pack for another $10 or buy-in to the prize pool for an additional amount (can't remember the exact total).

The am divisions were all trophy-only with a players pack for $20.

So two major incentives for playing am (cost and prizes) were gone. A few people played up, but most players stayed in the division where they felt comfortable.

well thats not exactly the same thing

 

[bradharris]

well thats not exactly the same thing

It's not exactly the same thing, but actually takes it a step farther. Your proposal is to just give pros a player's pack to encourage ams to step up. The Spring Fling took it a step further by reducing the Open entry fee, and taking all prizes away from the am divisions aside from a single trophy for the winner. It didn't grow the pro field by very much.

I've seen plenty of events where the pros get the same disc as the ams. It doesn't tend to encourage borderline ams to make the move.

 

[biscoe]

Would not make an iota of difference. Simply having all entry fees be the same would be more effective.

I am more of the mind that the game would be better off if almost no ams turned pro. Steady Ed set the whole thing up ass-backwards and it has never recovered.

 

[gdub58]

Not sure what problem you are trying to solve - are there really that many pros bagging in advanced? I mean, if you have ever accepted cash and are rated highly enough (>970) to be even marginally competitive in Open you can't play in Advanced anyway. Aren't most of the bagging complaints about those in Intermediate and Rec?

And, if you are trying to incent these 950 rated players (who generally have no business in Open in the first place) to play up by giving them a disc, wouldn't they stay in Advanced where they get the same disc and have a much better chance of winning even more discs?

Maybe I'm too dense to get your logic...

IMO two improvements to tournaments:
- Fewer divisions offered. Not fewer overall, but fewer in any given tournament.
- You play in the division your rating indicates; no exceptions. Give TDs some discretion to make Open 970+, 950+, whatever, and if you don't have a rating you either play in Open or a separate "no rating" division that is trophy only with an enhanced player's pack. If you want to play in a higher division, get better - that should be motivation enough.

While I realize this will rob Open of some of the "dead money", Open should have a shallower payout than other divisions in most tournaments anyhow.

 

[scarpfish]

Aren't most of the bagging complaints pretty much nothing more than hot air once you do some results analysis and realize nearly all of the so-called "baggers" are actually in their ratings appropriate division?

FTFY

 

[Stardoggy]

IMO two improvements to tournaments:
- Fewer divisions offered. Not fewer overall, but fewer in any given tournament.
- You play in the division your rating indicates; no exceptions. Give TDs some discretion to make Open 970+, 950+, whatever, and if you don't have a rating you either play in Open or a separate "no rating" division that is trophy only with an enhanced player's pack. If you want to play in a higher division, get better - that should be motivation enough.

Right on. If we're going to have a ratings system, we should use the damn thing.

 

[bluTDI09]

Not sure what problem you are trying to solve - are there really that many pros bagging in advanced? I mean, if you have ever accepted cash and are rated highly enough (>970) to be even marginally competitive in Open you can't play in Advanced anyway. Aren't most of the bagging complaints about those in Intermediate and Rec?

And, if you are trying to incent these 950 rated players (who generally have no business in Open in the first place) to play up by giving them a disc, wouldn't they stay in Advanced where they get the same disc and have a much better chance of winning even more discs?

Maybe I'm too dense to get your logic...

IMO two improvements to tournaments:
- Fewer divisions offered. Not fewer overall, but fewer in any given tournament.
- You play in the division your rating indicates; no exceptions. Give TDs some discretion to make Open 970+, 950+, whatever, and if you don't have a rating you either play in Open or a separate "no rating" division that is trophy only with an enhanced player's pack. If you want to play in a higher division, get better - that should be motivation enough.

While I realize this will rob Open of some of the "dead money", Open should have a shallower payout than other divisions in most tournaments anyhow.

Only slightly off topic and I realize this was probably not your point, but there is no such thing as bagging advanced. Advanced is not a ratings protected division.

 

[AndyJB]

Only slightly off topic and I realize this was probably not your point, but there is no such thing as bagging advanced. Advanced is not a ratings protected division.

THANK YOU

You cannot force someone to move into Open. If someone wants to remain an Amateur, then that is the decision of the individual. There is absolutely no reason to force anyone to move up.

What tournaments is the OP playing that is swamped with "borderline ams" in the Advanced division? Every region I've played in has has the exact opposite problem: e.g. Open is littered with 950 and lower rated players who stand no chance against the top guys who win every event.

Once again, DGCR, in its massive disconnect with the real world, is creating a solution (and a logically flawed one, at that) to a problem that simply does not exist.

Sandbagging, by and large, is nothing more than sour grapes from someone who got beat by a marginally better player.

 

[tbird888]

I always thought people wanted to stay in lower divisions to increase their chances of cashing at the end of the event, not getting a disc at the beginning. :shrug:

 

[DavidSauls]

I'll preface this by agreeing with those who say this is a solution in search of a problem.

But, answering the O.P., if you want to entice more players to play open, one intriguing and much more controversial method that was tried was the graduated entry fee, based on ratings.

Imagine a system where a 1000-rated player pays $100, a 900-rated player pays $20, and everyone else is scaled in between, for a single-division tournament.

The top players may, at first blush, feel they're being punished for being good, but upon reflection they'll realize that they always get their entry back, and all the other players added to the pool will just boost the purse.

The mid-level players will get a chance to compete, and possibly cash (with a bigger field, more chances), for much less cost. Less money on the line, more enticing to try.

The lower level players get to participate for a minimal entry, maybe play with some top players, maybe catch lightning in a bottle. But they've got very little invested to lose.

Everyone gets to play a huge field, with likely a different group every round.

*

This was done before and I believe successful, though I don't know if it's continued. I've been tempted to try it, but I think the tough part is getting people to think it through enough to give it a try.

 

[sidewinder22]

I'll preface this by agreeing with those who say this is a solution in search of a problem.

But, answering the O.P., if you want to entice more players to play open, one intriguing and much more controversial method that was tried was the graduated entry fee, based on ratings.

Imagine a system where a 1000-rated player pays $100, a 900-rated player pays $20, and everyone else is scaled in between, for a single-division tournament.

The top players may, at first blush, feel they're being punished for being good, but upon reflection they'll realize that they always get their entry back, and all the other players added to the pool will just boost the purse.

The mid-level players will get a chance to compete, and possibly cash (with a bigger field, more chances), for much less cost. Less money on the line, more enticing to try.

The lower level players get to participate for a minimal entry, maybe play with some top players, maybe catch lightning in a bottle. But they've got very little invested to lose.

Everyone gets to play a huge field, with likely a different group every round.

*

This was done before and I believe successful, though I don't know if it's continued. I've been tempted to try it, but I think the tough part is getting people to think it through enough to give it a try.

This is how the Seneca Soiree (Pro only event) has been run for as long I know, and had been the top tournament in the area for years until it lost A tier status last year. It's the only tourney I've played in every year. I wish every tournament had a sliding scale entry fee for Open except for maybe NT's and Majors.

 

[bwgort]

THANK YOU

You cannot force someone to move into Open. If someone wants to remain an Amateur, then that is the decision of the individual. There is absolutely no reason to force anyone to move up.

What tournaments is the OP playing that is swamped with "borderline ams" in the Advanced division? Every region I've played in has has the exact opposite problem: e.g. Open is littered with 950 and lower rated players who stand no chance against the top guys who win every event.

Once again, DGCR, in its massive disconnect with the real world, is creating a solution (and a logically flawed one, at that) to a problem that simply does not exist.

Sandbagging, by and large, is nothing more than sour grapes from someone who got beat by a marginally better player.

Actually you can force people to move to open by not offering the advanced division. In my tournaments, I have Rec, Intermediate, Trophy only Open and Open. Trophy only open is half the price and you are not eligible for payout. I also make sure to pair higher rated players with lower rated players so the lower rated players get to play with 1000+ rated players. Haven't had a single complaint yet and haven't had a tournament with less than 45 people in the open division. (This also solves your problem because it lowers the cash line so that 950-970 players can shoot their rating and cash.) Thoughts?

 

[AndyJB]

Is that sanctioned or non-sanctioned?

 

[bwgort]

Is that sanctioned or non-sanctioned?

sanctioned.

 

[sidewinder22]

Actually you can force people to move to open by not offering the advanced division. In my tournaments, I have Rec, Intermediate, Trophy only Open and Open. Trophy only open is half the price and you are not eligible for payout. I also make sure to pair higher rated players with lower rated players so the lower rated players get to play with 1000+ rated players. Haven't had a single complaint yet and haven't had a tournament with less than 45 people in the open division. (This also solves your problem because it lowers the cash line so that 950-970 players can shoot their rating and cash.) Thoughts?

Well it's not "forcing" them to play per say. This style format worked out ok when it was used around here, but a lot of 930 rated players were playing down instead of moving up from their normal am1 field. The event sold out, but I think any style format would sell out at this course, and has continued to sell out as the event changed to a more traditional format the past few years.

 

[bwgort]

Well it's not "forcing" them to play per say. This style format worked out ok when it was used around here, but a lot of 930 rated players were playing down instead of moving up from their normal am1 field. The event sold out, but I think any style format would sell out at this course, and has continued to sell out as the event changed to a more traditional format the past few years.

It's forcing all advanced rated players to either play pro or not play.

 

[AndyJB]

I don't agree with that, either. Again, why force someone to go pro? That's the answer I want to hear. The why.

 

[JTdisc]

If you want more players in open, have bigger cash payouts, or pay more finishers.

Problems with people playing in a division other than where they belong are limited to people sandbagging amateur divisions. This is fixed by strict ratings enforcement and other measures mentioned.