[DGPT Silver] GRIPeq 41st Kansas City Wide Open presented by Dynamic Discs

[ballgolfconvert]

Penalty padding is not golf, and they are not needed for scoring separation. In fact, you don't want artificial scoring separation. Pro level ball golf has virtually no penalties, just skill and distance challenges resulting from landing in sand traps and rough. The top PGA 200 players average 1 penalty of any kind per 2.5 rounds over the season even on courses with several water hazards. DDO averages 6 penalties per player per round.

We can have even more OB areas and mandos as challenges, just no need to also tack on penalty strokes. Our "penalties" would simply be loss of distance or lie relocation to a challenging drop zone. Players then use their skill to avoid adding more strokes to their score for their misfire. All that matters in the game of golf is stroke separation based on errors like not parking your drive/upshot or missing your putt, not padding scores with additional penalty fluff to make courses look tougher.

In-course out of bounds is totally frowned upon on the PGA Tour although there are still a couple of exceptions. They have found the players tend not to come back to that course the next year.when it is abundant.

 

[Cgkdisc]

In-course out of bounds is totally frowned upon on the PGA Tour although there are still a couple of exceptions. They have found the players tend not to come back to that course the next year when it is abundant.

The highest penalty percentage hole on the PGA tour is not surprisingly the #17 TPC island hole but it "only" has 17% penalty average. Every week on the DGPT tour there are several holes averaging over 20% penalty rate with some exceeding 50%. W.R. Jackson has the lowest OB on tour at less than 1% OB per hole on average followed by Brewster Ridge at 2%. On the other hand, Fox Run has one of the highest OB rates at 23% OB per hole on average with 2 holes exceeding 50%. Black Rock came in slightly above DGPT average around 20% OB average per hole.

 

[biscoe]

IMO featureless holes can sometimes be improved by judicious use of penalty areas of one sort or another but penalty areas should ideally not be the foundation on which holes are built. How it relates to golf scoring is only slightly relevant.

 

[@CD-]

With the current entries we might see a handful of rounds in the 50s each day in MPO (-9 or better) and FPO should see a couple under par rounds per day, maybe a hot score in the 50s for the tournament.

Rd 1: 3x MPO in 50s, 2x FPO under par
Rd 2: 3x MPO in 50s, 0 FPO under par
Rd 3: 4x MPO in 50s, 2x FPO under par
Hot rounds:
FPO 62 (-4) - 8 birdies and 4 over par strokes for H. Handley :clap:
MPO 55 (-13) - 11 birdies and an eagle for J. Anderson opcorn:

Handful of eagle opportunities for MPO on the par 5s and hole 1. Starting holes 1-3 will likely score as the easiest holes for the top 20. Hole 6 & 8 are really challenging to birdie - tee shot has to hit a certain line and landing zone and can leave golfers pinched off from approaching the green. I predict MPO hole 8 will be the least birdied (tunnel tee shot, blind approach, protected green on 3/4 sides within the circle).

Birdie rate for hole 8 each round: 14% / 10% / 16%
next closest was hole 10: 12% / 17% / 17%

Hole 3 played a bit more difficult than I anticipated for MPO. Tougher sloped footing for the second shot from the landing zone made it hard to get the power up to the sloped green. Approaching the green from 380'+ out & sticking in bounds from there was a bit challenging with the power line poles and treeline on each side obstructing wide hyzer shots.

 

[seedlings]

Penalty padding is not golf, and they are not needed for scoring separation. In fact, you don't want artificial scoring separation. Pro level ball golf has virtually no penalties, just skill and distance challenges resulting from landing in sand traps and rough. The top PGA 200 players average 1 penalty of any kind per 2.5 rounds over the season even on courses with several water hazards. DDO averages 6 penalties per player per round.

We can have even more OB areas and mandos as challenges, just no need to also tack on penalty strokes. Our "penalties" would simply be loss of distance or lie relocation to a challenging drop zone. Players then use their skill to avoid adding more strokes to their score for their misfire. All that matters in the game of golf is stroke separation based on errors like not parking your drive/upshot or missing your putt, not padding scores with additional penalty fluff to make courses look tougher.

You're not wrong. In Ball golf, how many 12 to 15 under par rounds happen each tournament? I'm not at all saying the sports should be comparable, but if they should be, then a disc golf tournament should have hot rounds of -4 to -6… with winning totals -10 to -15 max. Which would mean the FPO scores at Bad Rock Creek would have been OK in MPO bal golf.

Very tightly wooded with natural OB sounds like the only perfect scenario. No more tournaments in AZ, haha.

 

[playrecords]

I usually watch the Nick and Matt show and enjoy most episodes. Last night was fantasic.

I case you are waiting to watch post produced:

Spoiler

Ali Smith gave a great interview. She wasn't on my radar before last weekend but looks like she is having a pretty good year for first full year on tour... Also I always enjoy Steve Dodge and he was one of the co-hosts and was great.

 

[Cgkdisc]

You're not wrong. In Ball golf, how many 12 to 15 under par rounds happen each tournament? I'm not at all saying the sports should be comparable, but if they should be, then a disc golf tournament should have hot rounds of -4 to -6… with winning totals -10 to -15 max. Which would mean the FPO scores at Bad Rock Creek would have been OK in MPO bal golf.

Very tightly wooded with natural OB sounds like the only perfect scenario. No more tournaments in AZ, haha.

Trying to match our elite "strokes under par" with PGA ball golf has been a false goal for the following reason. Ball golf actually has two separate skill/power games within one > striking the ball primarily through the air to land on the green (target) and skillfully rolling the ball on the green into the cup (target). DG just has one skill/power game > throwing the disc primarily through the air to hit the target in a way that it stops in the basket. Our putting is an artificial term for short, accurate throws, not truly a different way to propel the disc near the basket like a putt along the surface in ball golf. Yes, our players putt with different stances but it's still a throw.

Getting birdie in ball golf requires good execution in both subgames. Getting birdie in disc golf on our reachable par 3s for a skill level usually requires just one good throw, either parking the drive or sinking a longer throw near the bucket. Note that players with ratings of 1030+, the average MPO rating for the top 25 at an elite event, are expected to average at least 4 below SSA just to shoot their rating on gold level courses and SSA is usually 3-5 strokes lower than the listed par. So, viewers should expect to see -8 in our sport in bogey free rounds as normal at the elite MPO level.

Players must shoot about half of their rounds better than their rating to maintain their rating, even more to increase it. Seeing a few or more rounds in the -12 to -15 range should be expected when these top players are on a heater.

If our sport's leaders and designers really felt it was important to reduce the birdie percentage in a more skillful way (not with penalty strokes), there are ways to add another subgame for putting, but I doubt players and viewers would like them. Some of those ways have been discussed in other threads on course design.

 

[seedlings]

Trying to match our elite "strokes under par" with PGA ball golf has been a false goal for the following reason. Ball golf actually has two separate skill/power games within one > striking the ball primarily through the air to land on the green (target) and skillfully rolling the ball on the green into the cup (target). DG just has one skill/power game > throwing the disc primarily through the air to hit the target in a way that it stops in the basket. Our putting is an artificial term for short, accurate throws, not truly a different way to propel the disc near the basket like a putt along the surface in ball golf. Yes, our players putt with different stances but it's still a throw.

Getting birdie in ball golf requires good execution in both subgames. Getting birdie in disc golf on our reachable par 3s for a skill level usually requires just one good throw, either parking the drive or sinking a longer throw near the bucket. Note that players with ratings of 1030+, the average MPO rating for the top 25 at an elite event, are expected to average at least 4 below SSA just to shoot their rating on gold level courses and SSA is usually 3-5 strokes lower than the listed par. So, viewers should expect to see -8 in our sport in bogey free rounds as normal at the elite MPO level.

Players must shoot about half of their rounds better than their rating to maintain their rating, even more to increase it. Seeing a few or more rounds in the -12 to -15 range should be expected when these top players are on a heater.

If our sport's leaders and designers really felt it was important to reduce the birdie percentage in a more skillful way (not with penalty strokes), there are ways to add another subgame for putting, but I doubt players and viewers would like them. Some of those ways have been discussed in other threads on course design.

I thought I was tracking with your comparisons to ball golf. I guess I am not. This response doesn't match with your previous comments. I agree with this one completely (except I agree for a different reason - ball golf and disc golf are as similar as cricket and baseball).

How do you determine the comparison between ball and disc golf, such that you expect one to be more like the other? Your comments sounded like they should play more similarly until this post, where you highlight these significant differences.

BTW, this is a super casual conversation. I'm merely a viewer and very amateur player.

 

[Cgkdisc]

I thought I was tracking with your comparisons to ball golf. I guess I am not. This response doesn't match with your previous comments. I agree with this one completely (except I agree for a different reason - ball golf and disc golf are as similar as cricket and baseball).

How do you determine the comparison between ball and disc golf, such that you expect one to be more like the other? Your comments sounded like they should play more similarly until this post, where you highlight these significant differences.

BTW, this is a super casual conversation. I'm merely a viewer and very amateur player.

For those involved in course design, rules and competition formats, it's important to borrow from ball golf the parts that make sense and develop our own parameters in areas where the elements don't line up. By using "golf" in our name since the 70s, broader public perception among players and non-players has been to assume more things are alike or "should be" made alike between the two. I'm just pointing out areas where our game mechanics differ under the hood.

 

[biscoe]

We have reached the point with the Pro Tour where sports have become entertainment- same as many other pro sports. A wise individual once told me that DGPT is not a disc golf tournament company- it is a media company. My experience has borne that out. Holes which are entertaining to the public do not necessarily align with concepts such as granularity or appropriate score separation. Hole 17 at Winthrop is an atrocious hole in terms of game play but it almost certainly has provided more entertainment than any other hole in disc golf over the years. Whether this is good or bad depends on your perspective I suppose.

 

[Cgkdisc]

We have reached the point with the Pro Tour where sports have become entertainment- same as many other pro sports. A wise individual once told me that DGPT is not a disc golf tournament company- it is a media company. My experience has borne that out. Holes which are entertaining to the public do not necessarily align with concepts such as granularity or appropriate score separation. Hole 17 at Winthrop is an atrocious hole in terms of game play but it almost certainly has provided more entertainment than any other hole in disc golf over the years. Whether this is good or bad depends on your perspective I suppose.

I would agree with the entertainment aspect but the exact same challenges without the added penalty strokes would work even better by keeping the scores tighter for more drama. Hole 17 with a rethrow for missing without the additional penalty stroke would work just fine and increase the number of players going for the target versus playing safe. Once players go to the drop zone, they can throw aggressively to hole out versus laying up. If they throw OB, they return to the DZ counting the throw but no added penalty.

Evaluate any penalty element in our game where their options could be set as: rethrow without penalty, move to DZ without penalty, play from last point IB without penalty, or move back on LOP to the edge of a sand trap Hazard for a much longer putt, and it will be fairer, more challenging for players and more interesting for viewers because every stroke on the scorecard will have been thrown and scores remain tighter for more drama and potential playoffs.

 

[flatflip]

I case you are waiting to watch post produced:

Is there post produced video for this?

 

[notapro]

Is there post produced video for this?

Commentary isn't my favorite... but not my least favorite either.

 

[playrecords]

Is there post produced video for this?

I've been waiting for FPO final round. Haven't seen it yet, but not unusual for Central Coast to be a few days later I have found.

Rounds 1 and 2 are up if you haven't seen them yet.

 

[playrecords]

Is there post produced video for this?

My mistake, just did a search and here it is:

 

[porkturtle]

Commentary isn't my favorite... but not my least favorite either.

Totally agree. Like Queen but O'Reilly is horrible which surprised me since he's usually way better with anybody other than Nate Perkins.

 

[notapro]

Totally agree. Like Queen but O'Reilly is horrible which surprised me since he's usually way better with anybody other than Nate Perkins.

Yeah... yeah. It was hard to finish, if it wasn't so close I would have bailed way earlier.

 

[porkturtle]

Yeah... yeah. It was hard to finish, if it wasn't so close I would have bailed way earlier.

I really don't mind a diminished field, as long as I get to see good competition and good young guns who we don't get to see as much. That said, in the final round I was sorta hoping that Chris Clemons or (a scorching hot) Emerson Keith would get a podium finish.

Loved to see Hebenheimer's incredible run in the final round as well as Joseph Anderson (who the fook is this guy?! Lol) who impressed with the Kastaplast (was that a brand new Stig he lost to the pond on that tough par 3 288' hole?!). That kid showed a great amount of poise after fading and coming back to grab second. Congrats to Gannon.

 

[seedlings]

I really don't mind a diminished field, as long as I get to see good competition and good young guns who we don't get to see as much. That said, in the final round I was sorta hoping that Chris Clemons or (a scorching hot) Emerson Keith would get a podium finish.

Loved to see Hebenheimer's incredible run in the final round as well as Joseph Anderson (who the fook is this guy?! Lol) who impressed with the Kastaplast (was that a brand new Stig he lost to the pond on that tough par 3 288' hole?!). That kid showed a great amount of poise after fading and coming back to grab second. Congrats to Gannon.

I home this is what Silver events become: showcases for up-and-coming talent.

 

[acrosley]

Holes which are entertaining to the public do not necessarily align with concepts such as granularity or appropriate score separation. Hole 17 at Winthrop is an atrocious hole in terms of game play but it almost certainly has provided more entertainment than any other hole in disc golf over the years. Whether this is good or bad depends on your perspective I suppose.

Very bad from the perspective of Chris Clemons and Chris Clemons fan boys such as myself