Disc speed, arm speed, distance and FPO

[Rastnav]

On this tee shot, Holly Finley is playing a hyzer shot on a 313 ft hole, which she parks:
https://youtu.be/Swr4dAq_2BE?t=692

She is throwing an Innova Starlite Boss.

That is a !13! speed disc with significant LSS. Yeah, the one she throws seems very well beat in, but still. Holly Finley chooses a Boss if she needs to throw 275 in a flat field, and seems to get about 330 out if it in that same flat field.

https://youtu.be/kal7vWUy7Rs

Broadly speaking, the disc choices that the average FPO player makes don't really seem to match up with the broad advice about discs floated around here. Another example, Ohn Scoggins, hardly someone with huge distance, regularly throws a Champion Colussus, a 14 speed disc, on forehand shots.

I would guess that these players are throwing discs that are significantly lower weight than players with significantly more power, and their form is infinitely better than the average short throwing player, but it still doesn't seem to quite add up.

So what explains this?

 

[EllEstar]

So this is something that comes up in conversations somewhat frequently. Being an FPO player who watches a lot of FPO I have some observations that I feel don't get brought up too much, but let's start with your two examples.

Holly Finley got introduced to Blizzard and Starlite discs very early on in her career and got used to throwing them in the woods where she played a lot. Ultra light discs are known to often be more inconsistent than regular weight discs but will frequently fly more understable, if they mold up similarly due, to the weight difference. Holly definitely gets a bit more speed out of her light discs and gets them to fly more understable at times, but she also bags heavier weight discs for more open and windier courses, something she started doing only a couple of years ago.

Ohn regularly throws a Champion Colossus that is 175g (max weight). She uses it as a very overstable, dependable disc, like people who throw much harder would use an Ape or Max, she also always flexes it but relies on it coming back hard. Her go to discs for more normal throws are lighter Destroyers, Shrykes and a Halo Tern, which she usually flexes too.

Most people who do not throw far are told to throw slower discs which is usually a good advice. They can work up as they get better and get more out of their drivers, etc.

The top FPO players are usually pretty good at throwing in general, some have great technique and solid power relative to their frames and some just have a lot of angle control and great short game. What almost all of them have in common is that relative to your average Joe who throws about as far as they do they have more control and consistency to their game. So while they don't have the power to "get a 13 speed disc up to speed" they have the angle control to release it nose down and give it the right height and put it on a slight flex to get the extra distance out of that disc that they're looking for.

They're also competing on hard courses against tight competition so it's often important to reach a landing spot 330ft away that you need a 13 speed disc to reach since that's the edge of their distance and if they instead reach for a 9 speed that they can control much better out to 300ft they end up in a much worse spot.

TL;DR: FPO players that throw 300-350' normally have much more control and experience than MA2-MA4 players that throw the same distance and can get more out of high speed drivers.

 

[Rastnav]

So this is something that comes up in conversations somewhat frequently. Being an FPO player who watches a lot of FPO I have some observations that I feel don't get brought up too much, but let's start with your two examples.

Holly Finley got introduced to Blizzard and Starlite discs very early on in her career and got used to throwing them in the woods where she played a lot. Ultra light discs are known to often be more inconsistent than regular weight discs but will frequently fly more understable, if they mold up similarly due, to the weight difference. Holly definitely gets a bit more speed out of her light discs and gets them to fly more understable at times, but she also bags heavier weight discs for more open and windier courses, something she started doing only a couple of years ago.

Ohn regularly throws a Champion Colossus that is 175g (max weight). She uses it as a very overstable, dependable disc, like people who throw much harder would use an Ape or Max, she also always flexes it but relies on it coming back hard. Her go to discs for more normal throws are lighter Destroyers, Shrykes and a Halo Tern, which she usually flexes too.

Most people who do not throw far are told to throw slower discs which is usually a good advice. They can work up as they get better and get more out of their drivers, etc.

The top FPO players are usually pretty good at throwing in general, some have great technique and solid power relative to their frames and some just have a lot of angle control and great short game. What almost all of them have in common is that relative to your average Joe who throws about as far as they do they have more control and consistency to their game. So while they don't have the power to "get a 13 speed disc up to speed" they have the angle control to release it nose down and give it the right height and put it on a slight flex to get the extra distance out of that disc that they're looking for.

They're also competing on hard courses against tight competition so it's often important to reach a landing spot 330ft away that you need a 13 speed disc to reach since that's the edge of their distance and if they instead reach for a 9 speed that they can control much better out to 300ft they end up in a much worse spot.

TL;DR: FPO players that throw 300-350' normally have much more control and experience than MA2-MA4 players that throw the same distance and can get more out of high speed drivers.

That all makes a fair amount of sense and it's sort of the answer I expected, akin to "git gud scrub". Where I get a little bit lost is that on the particular shot I linked, she doesn't throw it on a flex line, it's a hyzer that even flips up a tiny bit. Maybe that's all nose angle plus how beat the disc is. In any case that, plus the idea that they are going to get 330 feet of distance out of 13 speed when they can only get 300 out of a 9 speed just confuses me. It's basically "more speed = more distance". I guess I'm curious why that computes for good form, but slow arm speed.

 

[ray1970]

I have slowly been converting to the "throw what works best for you" school of thought.

I am old, have some physical limitations and I'm sure my form is less than ideal. I generally consider myself a 300' thrower.

Although I am sure I can't get them up to speed properly, I have discovered I can throw some speed twelve stuff out to 350 ish if I do my part. Why? Who knows. Maybe even though they leave my hand at the same speed as a fairway driver the more aerodynamic profile gets me farther?

 

[rjnoodlearm]

Great comments and questions.

(snipped)

Broadly speaking, the disc choices that the average FPO player makes don't really seem to match up with the broad advice about discs floated around here. (snipped)

So what explains this?

I have slowly learned that DG advice is just like life advice in general: It doesn't apply to everyone, all the time, or in the same ways.

In general people should wait a while to get married but sometimes teenagers stay married for life.

In general you should limit your intake of jelly donuts but some people can scarf them in large quantities with no ill effect.

The advice about disc speed is centered around the idea that controlling a putter or a mid is easier than a high speed, and this is demonstrably correct. But that doesn't mean you can't learn the eccentricities of a high speed disc and use it to good effect even with slower than optimum arm speed.

And yes, forehands are a different breed. Putters and mids are a disaster for my forehand. I need at least a speed 9 to get a decent forehand result.

 

[rjnoodlearm]

I have slowly been converting to the "throw what works best for you" school of thought.

I am old, have some physical limitations and I'm sure my form is less than ideal. I generally consider myself a 300' thrower.

Although I am sure I can't get them up to speed properly, I have discovered I can throw some speed twelve stuff out to 350 ish if I do my part. Why? Who knows. Maybe even though they leave my hand at the same speed as a fairway driver the more aerodynamic profile gets me farther?

Yes, this!

Much of the "pro" advice I see is probably 100% correct for people under 30 who are learning the game, and especially for teenagers and younger.

For us old guys and gals we have to go with what works now because tomorrow may never come.

 

[autocrosscrx]

I like to watch FPO because their game is more applicable to mine.

I found pretty early that I can throw certain 155 - 162g understable wide-rimmed drivers pretty straight and longer than my fairway drivers without much of an accuracy penalty. I, honestly, kind of hate playing with people because so many people tend to give the advice of skipping the drivers and just throwing fairways or even mids.

The thing about it is that I can step up with a distance driver and if I execute the shot on certain holes, I have a very makeable birdie putt. If I don't execute the shot, I still have a very good chance at getting up and down for par. If I step up with, say a Teebird, I'm playing for par at best.

 

[klodkrawler05]

It seems like the pros usually have pretty solid control over there discs like EllEstar said, sometimes they'll throw a disc for a specific shot that doesn't "make sense" I can't remember which event it was but I recall last year there was a round PP threw her Fierce on a 340' hole, then the very next hole (sub 300' IIRC) she threw a raptor. It seemed to me like she could've thrown either of those discs on both holes but, I'm not a 5x champion so what do I know.

 

[Nick Pacific]

Wide rimmed fast 12/13 speed discs also skip a ton too, especially if you throw them flat which you can for a lighter straighter plastic. I'm thinking a traditional 175g star boss is going to just hyzer out and dive bomb into the grass but a 155g Starlite one can be thrown flat and will finish straighter and then LSS will still give you plenty of skip getting you an extra 30ft despite no change in disc speed.

 

[Keller]

All depends on what you want and where you find your enjoyment.

If you're throwing high speed discs 250ft, you'll never get good at disc golf.
But
You will however, become a master of throwing high speed discs 250ft. ( and you also might wreck your shoulder, your elbow, your knee and your ankle)

I think in ten years (maybe 5) we'll see FPO differently. It will become (like MPO) cleaner and leaner. There is going to be a lot more top level throwers and far less chuckers. And boy do I hope the putting improves too.

I find very little interest in watching most FPO coverage, I can see that kind of play on any local weekend doubles. A lot of it is down right cringe worthy to watch, and mix that in with the giggling commentary and I can only last a few holes.

And why are guys trying to compare their bags to what women throw? I wish I could throw like Page or Cat, but I can't, but I can sure throw a lot better than a lot of them.

By the way, I too used to be a 250ft high speed chucker. I was tired of being embarrassed watching average local guys throw putters on holes I was throwing a Wraith on. So I changed, and that is what has made me happy.

 

[biscoe]

All depends on what you want and where you find your enjoyment.

If you're throwing high speed discs 250ft, you'll never get good at disc golf.
But
You will however, become a master of throwing high speed discs 250ft. ( and you also might wreck your shoulder, your elbow, your knee and your ankle)

I used to throw high speed discs maybe 350, down to about 300 now and trending lower. I still do OK competing with my peers, most of whom do throw farther than I. I have done this for long enough and know my plastic well enough that discing down makes zero sense for me. Getting old is a bitch but it beats the **** out of the alternative.

 

[mojorooks]

Broadly speaking, the disc choices that the average FPO player makes don't really seem to match up with the broad advice about discs floated around here.

Personally I took the advice on here and don't throw above a 9 speed. Its very sound newbie advice. It completely works for me. Why? Because I lack consistency. A 13 speed is going to shank farther into the woods than a 9 speed.

Once I get to the point where I can consistently land my 9 speed where I want it, I will be open to using a faster disc. In fact I've been a bit better lately and I'm thinking about doing just that for wide open shots.

 

[autocrosscrx]

We got a local pitch and putt. Everyone calls it a mid and putter course. And every time someone loses a driver or posts up an ace with a driver, people on the local FB make fun of them.

I'm playing with a guy who is one of those types. We walk up to a hole. It is about 270 feet with an initial gap with a relatively low ceiling, trouble to the right, and the basket is probably about 50 or 60 feet to the left behind a giant tree. He steps up. He grabs a putter, throws and shot gets redirected by the low ceiling and ends up in the mess to the right about 150 feet from the tee. Let me throw another. He then throws a really nice putter shot about 240 to 250 feet. So he is now about 60 feet out with a giant tree between him and the basket. I step up and grab a DX Destroyer. He makes fun of me. I throw a low flip up standstill shot that flies about 270 and skips about 30 feet straight left, leaving me an obstructed 15 to 20 footer.

I don't understand how I'm the one in that equation that is doing it wrong. Even if I could bomb, I still think I'd be throwing something like a Firebird because that is the only way you could get far enough left.

 

[scooby snack]

We got a local pitch and putt. Everyone calls it a mid and putter course. And every time someone loses a driver or posts up an ace with a driver, people on the local FB make fun of them.

I'm playing with a guy who is one of those types. We walk up to a hole. It is about 270 feet with an initial gap with a relatively low ceiling, trouble to the right, and the basket is probably about 50 or 60 feet to the left behind a giant tree. He steps up. He grabs a putter, throws and shot gets redirected by the low ceiling and ends up in the mess to the right about 150 feet from the tee. Let me throw another. He then throws a really nice putter shot about 240 to 250 feet. So he is now about 60 feet out with a giant tree between him and the basket. I step up and grab a DX Destroyer. He makes fun of me. I throw a low flip up standstill shot that flies about 270 and skips about 30 feet straight left, leaving me an obstructed 15 to 20 footer.

I don't understand how I'm the one in that equation that is doing it wrong. Even if I could bomb, I still think I'd be throwing something like a Firebird because that is the only way you could get far enough left.

Lowest score wins. Attack the hole with the disc YOU choose and commit to.

 

[Rastnav]

1 - I think specific shots and shot shapes don't necessarily fall into the general advice. The specific line you are trying to hit is always going to trump generic disc selection advice.

2 - I don't know what your "internet distance" is, so it's a little unclear to me how much power you can put into a disc. But the idea that you can flip up a Destroyer with 270 feet of power is one of the things I am wondering about. I'm assuming it's a very beat-in disc? How lightweight is it?

In the 2nd round commentary for Stafford, Finley mentioned that almost no one in the FPO field actually throws light weight discs. She's sorta proselytizing for it. I want to go figure out Heather Young's typical disc selection, as I know she is considered relatively lacking in power and I seem to recall her throwing fairly high speed discs. Although, "lacking in power" is, I'm sure, relative.

 

[autocrosscrx]

1 - I think specific shots and shot shapes don't necessarily fall into the general advice. The specific line you are trying to hit is always going to trump generic disc selection advice.

2 - I don't know what your "internet distance" is, so it's a little unclear to me how much power you can put into a disc. But the idea that you can flip up a Destroyer with 270 feet of power is one of the things I am wondering about. I'm assuming it's a very beat-in disc? How lightweight is it?

In the 2nd round commentary for Stafford, Finley mentioned that almost no one in the FPO field actually throws light weight discs. She's sorta proselytizing for it. I want to go figure out Heather Young's typical disc selection, as I know she is considered relatively lacking in power and I seem to recall her throwing fairly high speed discs. Although, "lacking in power" is, I'm sure, relative.

To answer #2

I'd say about 300. Last year, I was putting stuff out to the 320-330 mark on the regular on wide open holes, but probably had less than 250 feet of practical distance if I had to hit any gap, miss a tree, land in an area, etc. This year, I struggle to put a disc out 300 in the field, but my practical distance is more like 280.

Disc in question isn't very beat in, but it is also a DX. Penned either 165 or 166g. I've got a basketball background, so athletic stance is natural to me and that pretty much forces a hyzer angle. I was throwing hyzer flips before I know what they were and before I knew that it was even possible to throw neutral discs flat and straight.

 

[aphilso1]

I've noticed the same thing as the OP. I do think the advice to new players should be to avoid the fast stuff. Throwing distance drivers before your form/power allows is stunting your growth as a player. But what about players whose form is great but power just isn't there? Older players, FPO, players recovering from injury, etc.? For those players I think distance drivers can be a useful tool but probably not best to be overly reliant on.

I've personally disced down a lot this year. Distance drivers are now relegated to the following roles:
-Shots that I need to skip or fade significantly, and require more distance than a Felon/Firebird type disc
-Headwind max distance shots
-Shots were severely missing my line won't create a bogey, but the reward for a perfect shot 20' longer than a fairway driver significantly increases my birdie chance. This is the only time I actually attempt a max distance flex line.

When I have followed FPO coverage, it seems like that last scenario is pretty common particularly on the wide-open ball golf courses.

 

[scooby snack]

That all makes a fair amount of sense and it's sort of the answer I expected, akin to "git gud scrub". Where I get a little bit lost is that on the particular shot I linked, she doesn't throw it on a flex line, it's a hyzer that even flips up a tiny bit. Maybe that's all nose angle plus how beat the disc is. In any case that, plus the idea that they are going to get 330 feet of distance out of 13 speed when they can only get 300 out of a 9 speed just confuses me. It's basically "more speed = more distance". I guess I'm curious why that computes for good form, but slow arm speed.

High spoed discs will fly overstable when underpowered, finishing with a predictable left turn for RHBH throwers.

This is useful when you want to avoid throwing a disc on a high hyzer line, but you still need the disc to finish left of the tee.

 

[Rastnav]

High spoed discs will fly overstable when underpowered, finishing with a predictable left turn for RHBH throwers.

This is useful when you want to avoid throwing a disc on a high hyzer line, but you still need the disc to finish left of the tee.

Holly Finley is throwing Katanas on 300 foot turnover lines, and they just hold the angle.
She is throwing her Boss on hyzer lines that flip up, ride and then finish on a gentle fade.

This isn't throwing an over speed disc to get a very specific line, it's throwing it on lines that you would expect out of the disc, just much shorter.

 

[scooby snack]

Holly Finley is throwing Katanas on 300 foot turnover lines, and they just hold the angle.
She is throwing her Boss on hyzer lines that flip up, ride and then finish on a gentle fade.

This isn't throwing an over speed disc to get a very specific line, it's throwing it on lines that you would expect out of the disc, just much shorter.

She may be using Blizzard and heavier discs, to achieve those shots. Blizzard beats in fast. Most players find they can flip those discs after a short break in period.