Disc speed, arm speed, distance and FPO

[Nick Pacific]

I find very little interest in watching most FPO coverage, I can see that kind of play on any local weekend doubles. A lot of it is down right cringe worthy to watch, and mix that in with the giggling commentary and I can only last a few holes.
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Paige is 990, Cat, Hailey and Missy are all 950 - 970 and those 4 generally make up most of the lead card coverage nowadays. I'm not sure where you play your weekend doubles, but I'm willing to bet that average rating beats your typical card. If you're contesting that, put up some discgolfscene/Facebook links to these leagues and prove me wrong.

As far as the commentary, Jomez set the bar high. Sexton was a collegiate level disc golf team coach and teacher, and is currently team captain of Innova. Uli is team captain of Discraft and has been doing clinics on the road for more than a decade, and Jerm is literally the loudest mouth on the whole course wherever he plays. There haven't been any females who have anywhere near that level of experience talking and teaching disc golf so it's a bit unfair to hold them to that high of a standard. I think they will get better as the experience adds up.

 

[klodkrawler05]

Paige is 990, Cat, Hailey and Missy are all 950 - 970 and those 4 generally make up most of the lead card coverage nowadays. I'm not sure where you play your weekend doubles, but I'm willing to bet that average rating beats your typical card. If you're contesting that, put up some discgolfscene/Facebook links to these leagues and prove me wrong.

It's probably fairly dependent on where you live, I just checked our local sanctioned Thursday night league and we've got 12 people between 950-998 rated and at least 7 of them have turned in rounds that are over 1000 rated.
https://www.pdga.com/tour/event/48740#MA1

 

[Nick Pacific]

It's probably fairly dependent on where you live, I just checked our local sanctioned Thursday night league and we've got 12 people between 950-998 rated and at least 7 of them have turned in rounds that are over 1000 rated.
https://www.pdga.com/tour/event/48740#MA1

I'm looking at your assortment of open players from top to bottom and I'd put your typical card at an average of 930ish. Still very good, but nowhere near FPO lead card level.

 

[autocrosscrx]

As posted before, I enjoy watching FPO coverage because it is more relevant to my game, but I agree on the coverage.

I don't enjoy Nate Doss acting like a missed 30 footer brings shame to the disc golfer's family, but the FPO coverage is frequently WAY too nice. You don't have to say that a given shot is terrible, but you can (and should IMO) address that the desired result wasn't achieved. There are way too many times that throwlers and shanked up shots and putts are praised.

 

[autocrosscrx]

I'm looking at your assortment of open players from top to bottom and I'd put your typical card at an average of 930ish. Still very good, but nowhere near FPO lead card level.

To be fair, the person that you responded to didn't say "on any card" or "from any player" at local weekend doubles. It'd be kind of weird for me to follow around a weekend doubles card, but if I were to do so, I could certainly follow a card where the A's are rated as highly as Page Pierce and Missy Gannon.

And it really isn't that rare at all for me to go out to a course and see a group of 960-1010 players playing a casual round for a few bucks.

 

[Keller]

Paige is 990, Cat, Hailey and Missy are all 950 - 970 and those 4 generally make up most of the lead card coverage nowadays. I'm not sure where you play your weekend doubles, but I'm willing to bet that average rating beats your typical card. If you're contesting that, put up some discgolfscene/Facebook links to these leagues and prove me wrong.

I wasn't talking about the top card, or the top few players. I was talking about the average FPO field

As far as the commentary, Jomez set the bar high. Sexton was a collegiate level disc golf team coach and teacher, and is currently team captain of Innova. Uli is team captain of Discraft and has been doing clinics on the road for more than a decade, and Jerm is literally the loudest mouth on the whole course wherever he plays. There haven't been any females who have anywhere near that level of experience talking and teaching disc golf so it's a bit unfair to hold them to that high of a standard. I think they will get better as the experience adds up.

All true, and I also did say that in 5-10 years, FPO will probably look a lot different than it does now.

I'm not hating on FPO. It has it's growing pains to go through and I'm pretty sure it will greatly improve in the coming years.

 

[drk_evns]

The cognitive dissonance comes from the flawed advice that "beginners (low arm speed) should only throw low speed discs." I've always disagreed with this. There is value in throwing all types of discs, whether or not you can break 300.

Putter rounds are very beneficial to your game, but I promise if you only throw low speed discs you'll have nose angle issues when you switch to drivers.

The reason FPO players without an arm speed like Paige are throwing Bosses is because they're useful. Imagine having a 275 foot shot that ALWAYS stops at that distance and NEVER turns over. It becomes predictable. When I started I used a Nuke for pretty much anything other than a putt. It was VERY consistent for upshots. Sure, it's embarrassing to throw a 14 speed for a 150 foot upshot, but I bet most of you would be more consistent doing that than throwing a neutral putter on the same shot... you just wont do it for your ego.

Leaning on something like that for too long will inhibit your other skills, but that's true with anything. Throw everything. Build YOUR game. Don't apologize for it.

 

[BillFleming]

The cognitive dissonance comes from the flawed advice that "beginners (low arm speed) should only throw low speed discs." I've always disagreed with this. There is value in throwing all types of discs, whether or not you can break 300.

I'm taking lessons from Pete Ulibarri (Paul's older brother) and he taught me the same thing - low arm speed doesn't mean "only low speed discs". He measured my arm speed at 42 MPH which would equate to 7 speed and less. What 'low arm speed' players need to understand is that you arm speed only indicates which disc speeds you can get to work AS DESIGNED. For me, 7 speed and less fly as the manufacturer/flight numbers indicate. But, I can still get higher speed discs to fly...I just won't get the distance or flight that someone who has the needed arm speed will get. A 9 speed disc might not go 375 feet for me....I might only get 280 from it....but that 280 might be what I need. Maybe instead of a gentle fade, I get a hard dump and roll....that has its purpose. I carry two 9 speed discs (one overstable and one understable) just for a specific flight each one gives me. I'm not going to get much more distance than I do with my 7 speed...but, they have their use.

By the way....this advice also applies to lightweight discs. Just because you throw lightweight discs awesomely....doesn't mean heavier discs don't have a place in your bag (and vice versa).

 

[BogeyNoMore]

Simon just posted this video, and it's pretty interesting. He throws a putter, mid, fairway,and distance drivers at 40, 50, 60, & 70 MPH (Note: all his throws for each test round were within 2mph of each other), and measured the distance for each disc .

 

[jupiterboy]

Simon just posted this video, and it's pretty interesting. He throws a putter, mid, fairway,and distance drivers at 40, 50, 60, & 70 MPH (Note: all his throws for each test round were within 2mph of each other), and measured the distance for each disc .

The data all works but the midrange seems to be the outlier.

Feels like some confirmation of that tip of the whip bit with form, late acceleration, and spin making their contributions to distance.

I wonder how that radar works. Does it average arm speed, or peak, or what? Do you get similar readings from the side vs behind, etc.

 

[sidewinder22]

The data all works but the midrange seems to be the outlier.

Feels like some confirmation of that tip of the whip bit with form, late acceleration, and spin making their contributions to distance.

I disagree. The other guy thought he put too much hyzer on the release, but he is throwing anhyzer release and Simon is actually releasing with slight hyzer. The angles are all different, more so than the spin.

I commented on that video...
"I wouldn't be surprised if Simon had less spin, I think spin has very little to do with the difference in flight. Erin Hemmings test results with accelerometer showed that his throws had lower spin ratio than his friend who doesn't throw that far. Paraphrasing Avery Jenkins - "There's a difference between trying to spin a disc, and throwing a disc far."

The flight difference was mainly due to trajectory and nose angle, and form goes along with the territory. Nose up air bounce creates massive drag slowing the disc down much quicker and going nose up reduces the glide phase on the way down as it stalls and fades out instead of penetrating forward longer. In order to throw the nose up air bounce you have to throw the disc with a downward trajectory. Simon is throwing with a slightly upward trajectory and the nose down to keep penetrating forward and gliding out on the way down instead of stalling and fading out. Note how Simon's arm and shoulder follows thru upward and the other guy arm and shoulder goes downward coming over top the front leg."

 

[R-Ogre]

I disagree. The other guy thought he put too much hyzer on the release, but he is throwing anhyzer release and Simon is actually releasing with slight hyzer. The angles are all different, more so than the spin.

I commented on that video...
"I wouldn't be surprised if Simon had less spin, I think spin has very little to do with the difference in flight. Erin Hemmings test results with accelerometer showed that his throws had lower spin ratio than his friend who doesn't throw that far. Paraphrasing Avery Jenkins - "There's a difference between trying to spin a disc, and throwing a disc far."

The flight difference was mainly due to trajectory and nose angle, and form goes along with the territory. Nose up air bounce creates massive drag slowing the disc down much quicker and going nose up reduces the glide phase on the way down as it stalls and fades out instead of penetrating forward longer. In order to throw the nose up air bounce you have to throw the disc with a downward trajectory. Simon is throwing with a slightly upward trajectory and the nose down to keep penetrating forward and gliding out on the way down instead of stalling and fading out. Note how Simon's arm and shoulder follows thru upward and the other guy arm and shoulder goes downward coming over top the front leg."

I'm no great golfer but a practical understanding of aerodynamics is part of my work and that understanding says to me that not throwing nose up is a huge key to distance. Kinda funny/frustrating how something about the way our joints work together makes it not instinctive to throw nose down.

 

[crd 81]

I disagree. The other guy thought he put too much hyzer on the release, but he is throwing anhyzer release and Simon is actually releasing with slight hyzer. The angles are all different, more so than the spin.

I commented on that video...
"I wouldn't be surprised if Simon had less spin, I think spin has very little to do with the difference in flight. Erin Hemmings test results with accelerometer showed that his throws had lower spin ratio than his friend who doesn't throw that far. Paraphrasing Avery Jenkins - "There's a difference between trying to spin a disc, and throwing a disc far."

The flight difference was mainly due to trajectory and nose angle, and form goes along with the territory. Nose up air bounce creates massive drag slowing the disc down much quicker and going nose up reduces the glide phase on the way down as it stalls and fades out instead of penetrating forward longer. In order to throw the nose up air bounce you have to throw the disc with a downward trajectory. Simon is throwing with a slightly upward trajectory and the nose down to keep penetrating forward and gliding out on the way down instead of stalling and fading out. Note how Simon's arm and shoulder follows thru upward and the other guy arm and shoulder goes downward coming over top the front leg."

As soon as I watched the video, I was waiting to hear what you had to say.

This is a good video of showing why nose down is important.

 

[sidewinder22]

 

[RFrance]

I always like to point out that the straight line in that graph is just the "Theoretical Rolling Speed" plot. When the actual data is plotted and fitted (second order polynomial) you can see that there is a limit to the amount of spin that can actually be generated, in this experiment around 2300 rpm.

https://www.dgcoursereview.com/forums/showpost.php?p=3515954&postcount=10

 

[seedlings]

Great video here of Simon matching MPH with different discs, as well as matching MPH with another pro. Interesting: Simon and Pro threw exact same disc +/-1MPH, and Simon's went 60' farther. He speculated that spin was the advantage (or general form). The video does well to demonstrate that MPH is a huge tell, but not everything.

 

[jupiterboy]

I always like to point out that the straight line in that graph is just the "Theoretical Rolling Speed" plot. When the actual data is plotted and fitted (second order polynomial) you can see that there is a limit to the amount of spin that can actually be generated, in this experiment around 2300 rpm.

https://www.dgcoursereview.com/forums/showpost.php?p=3515954&postcount=10

Spin seems to be a hot-button issue, which seems to naturally flow along the lines of increasing spin.

I sometimes notice that grip issues and lack of flexibility seem to limit spin, so that maximizing spin isn't about increasing but rather not limiting.

 

[txmxer]

Wide rimmed fast 12/13 speed discs also skip a ton too, especially if you throw them flat which you can for a lighter straighter plastic. I'm thinking a traditional 175g star boss is going to just hyzer out and dive bomb into the grass but a 155g Starlite one can be thrown flat and will finish straighter and then LSS will still give you plenty of skip getting you an extra 30ft despite no change in disc speed.

During my trial and error phase, I purchased a 175g Boss...I might as well be throwing a 10# bar bell weight. Not only does it hyzer out, it does so very quickly with my significantly less than pro level power and speed.

But, an over stable disc can provide a consistent flight pattern and that is often the key to success for me. That said, I don't bag the boss. It sits in my disc box mocking me.

 

[txmxer]

Great video here of Simon matching MPH with different discs, as well as matching MPH with another pro. Interesting: Simon and Pro threw exact same disc +/-1MPH, and Simon's went 60' farther. He speculated that spin was the advantage (or general form). The video does well to demonstrate that MPH is a huge tell, but not everything.

Would be nice to have some repetition in there to validate the data, but I think it's good just the same.

I put in a chart to see what it looked like.

 

[txmxer]

Having a reference for how far a disc flies at a given speed for guys like Simon is useful.

If I throw a driver 50 MPH and get close to 300' of distance, I can be confident my form is at least okay. If it's dropping out 250ish or less, I know I've got work to do on form.