Discing down adventures.

[slowRoll]

Now you have to ask yourself, is it my new, longer throw that's messed up or my old disc selection that was keeping me from throwing farther that was messed up?

Nearly everyone that goes through this exercise reevaluates what discs they choose to throw.

My mids were going almost as far as my drivers while trying to throw everything low and flat and not play S-out lines. I'm sure if I switched the Avenger for a Valk, it would flip up and go farther like the Buzzz is, but my point was that now while trying to throw flat, I'm giving a little hyzer, where I used to give a little anhyzer. It's 6 of one, half dozen of the other for me now since I haven't had time to play in over a week. I'm sure I'll get it sorted out if I can get some time freed up this weekend.
But honestly, I attribute any success I've had to the fact that I always try to throw straight down the middle and hit fairways and make putts. If I now have to start throwing with hyzer on less stable discs to punch down the middle that opens up a world of extra variables that can and will go wrong. Anyone who has ever conducted actual scientific experiments will tell you that you should be striving towards reducing the number of variables in any equation. More in this case = more complicated.

 

[BrotherDave]

With great power comes great responsibility, slowroll. Once you get your control down, you'll be able to make those slower discs dance around on lines you couldn't before when you threw disc X or Y flat.

 

[Technohic]

I would think that straight down the middle is easier to do with a slow disc than a fast disc, regardless of what hyzer/anhyzer angle you need to use. So long as you know what angle you use with that disc.

Not sure what the extra variable is.

 

[garublador]

But honestly, I attribute any success I've had to the fact that I always try to throw straight down the middle and hit fairways and make putts.

But you're looking to improve, right? How can it be the best way if you still need improvement?

If I now have to start throwing with hyzer on less stable discs to punch down the middle that opens up a world of extra variables that can and will go wrong.

I think you'll find the opposite to be true. It's actually easier to get the flights you want this way.

Anyone who has ever conducted actual scientific experiments will tell you that you should be striving towards reducing the number of variables in any equation. More in this case = more complicated.

So what are your scientific credentials, anyway?

You aren't even eliminating any variables. You still have hyzer/anyhyzer angle, nose angle, initial trajectory, disc selection and OAT as the major contributions to disc flight. Just trying to throw one certain hyzer/anhyzer angle doesn't eliminate it as a variable, there will still be variation. In fact, smaller changes in that variable will result in larger flight changes when flat is chosen as the angle because 1 degree of hyzer will be a lot different flight from 1 degree of anhyzer. The same can't be said for a +/- 1 degree change in hyzer angle. So if you wanted to throw everything with the same angle you'd be better off picking a definite hyzer or anhyzer than flat. There's no chance of you throwing the other accidentally that way.

You're also adding a big variation in disc selection this way, too. Rather than leaving it all up to the disc you'll find that you have way more control and consistency if you force the line you want every time. Your margin of error is larger that way and that's really what you want to be maximizing.

I'll bet that for every very successful pro that throws all of their drives flat you could name a world champion that doesn't. I don't think this is something that you can prove, but in the videos I've seen nearly every single pro is throwing every angle except flat.

 

[slowRoll]

So what are your scientific credentials, anyway?

Computer science degree ?!?

I've had this conversation with several of you before. All I'm saying is it is easier to do something really well when you focus on doing that one thing. All I can do is throw in the 300s semi-accurately and stick a few putts inside the circle. I'm trying to improve overall distance because I am not as competitive as I'd like to be against younger guys that throw in the 400s and also stick their putts on longer courses. I wanted to see if anyone else had found that by discing down for a few weeks that their throwing motion had changed to accommodate the slower discs. Mine changed by (thankfully) helping me eliminate some OAT. But now after 3 years of throwing primarily flat, I am throwing drivers on an angle. Yes we all do some of these during every round, but smooth and flat has been my bread and butter. These flat deliveries are not going as far now, and stabling up on me quicker. I've done this for a little while now, and I understand what you are saying about disc selection. It won't kill me to throw more Beasts, Vikings, and Valks instead of Avengers and Surges while I work on this; but I now wonder if I even want to "re-make the wheel" and if this is worth the effort?

I understand this is a process and don't expect anything to change greatly until I get more practice with it. I also take everything said here with a grain of salt as I am one of the few Drone advocates and I know how many of you feel about us throwing those. I don't expect to see eye to eye with you all, but I am enjoying the discussion.

 

[U_NICED_ME]

Input please!

I just had my first day of working in the fields with my putters. I threw 8 putters and my Buzz for about 30 minutes. I couldn't believe it, before I left I had them all going mostly straight and decent distance on them.

I want to make sure I'm practicing these drills correctly.

1. I took one step, reached back and pulled through.
Q:Should I be doing what more closely resembles my drive with full X-step?

2. I have pain on the top left side of my arm, not bad pain, just noticeable muscle has been worked out pain. (Please see attached)
Q: Is it ok that I seem to be localizing this muscle during the drills?

3. The only other place I feel a noticeable fatigue is in my Deltoid muscle.
Q: Does that mean I'm still using too much arm and not developing strength in the appropriate location?

TY in advance.

 

[BrotherDave]

Mine changed by (thankfully) helping me eliminate some OAT. But now after 3 years of throwing primarily flat, I am throwing drivers on an angle. Yes we all do some of these during every round, but smooth and flat has been my bread and butter. These flat deliveries are not going as far now, and stabling up on me quicker. I've done this for a little while now, and I understand what you are saying about disc selection. It won't kill me to throw more Beasts, Vikings, and Valks instead of Avengers and Surges while I work on this; but I now wonder if I even want to "re-make the wheel" and if this is worth the effort?

I know what you are saying but this stuck out to me. You're blaming the release angles for the lack of distance you're getting from your Avengers and Surges but the real culprit may be (or was in my case) that the OAT eliminated from your throw is now giving you a better idea of those discs' actual stability. With OAT, you could throw the Surge flat and S-curve it for big D, so could I. But with less OAT the Surge acts more overstable b/c it's a faster driver. You may just not have the arm speed yet to get those discs flying at their cruising speed and you wouldn't know this if you weren't throwing them cleanly.

Discing down and eliminating OAT isn't so much about "re-making the wheel," it's more like adding suspension and brakes and handling to make the wheel more useful.

Hopefully that makes sense, my head is waging a war against my sinuses right now.

 

[BrotherDave]

I just had my first day of working in the fields with my putters. I threw 8 putters and my Buzz for about 30 minutes. I couldn't believe it, before I left I had them all going mostly straight and decent distance on them.

I want to make sure I'm practicing these drills correctly.

1. I took one step, reached back and pulled through.
Q:Should I be doing what more closely resembles my drive with full X-step?

2. I have pain on the top left side of my arm, not bad pain, just noticeable muscle has been worked out pain. (Please see attached)
Q: Is it ok that I seem to be localizing this muscle during the drills?

3. The only other place I feel a noticeable fatigue is in my Deltoid muscle.
Q: Does that mean I'm still using too much arm and not developing strength in the appropriate location?

TY in advance.

1. In my mind this is debatable. I think it depends on the person. While it is a beautiful thing learning to rip from a standstill and very worth practicing since poor X-stepping can inhibit you from realizing/using/feeling basic disc throwing fundamentals (the hit, snap, &c.), I think some people, myself included, are just naturally rhythm based athletes and the rhythm of an X-step can facilitate the exercise. For example, in Bball I can shoot off the dribble but spot up jumpers are my weakness, some people are the opposite. As long as you are X-stepping correctly, it shouldn't hurt as long as it feels natural. Just do it slowly and consciously so that you aren't compromising the meat and potatoes of the throw with crap timing and positioning/momentum (i.e. reverse pivoting.)

2. I'm not sure I understand exactly. Just remember that your grip and arm should be relatively loose through all parts of the throw, just tense enough to keep hold of the disc, until you start coming across the pec and accelerating towards the hit, then you grip hard. I find this difficult to get used to b/c you want to the opposite. Gripping too hard all the way is a great way to get tendinitis (trust me on this one )

3. Sounds like you're not following through enough. Your momentum should have you over your plant foot and cause you to spin and pivot forward and around, otherwise you're shoulder is slamming into your scapula.

 

[U_NICED_ME]

Just remember that your grip and arm should be relatively loose through all parts of the throw, just tense enough to keep hold of the disc, until you start coming across the pec and accelerating towards the hit, then you grip hard. I find this difficult to get used to b/c you want to the opposite. Gripping too hard all the way is a great way to get tendinitis (trust me on this one )

3. Sounds like you're not following through enough. Your momentum should have you over your plant foot and cause you to spin and pivot forward and around, otherwise you're shoulder is slamming into your scapula.

First off, I've never heard that before. I am pushing my thumb down on the disc from start to finish. What you're saying makes a lot of sense as I've had a little pain in my arm today, but I played a lot of golf this weekend.

And you're right I didn't follow through at all, I was worried I would pull left, so I stopped short. I was doing an abbreviated version of my throw and I can see what you're saying may very well be causing that.

Those are things I can definitely work on Brother Dave!!! Thank you!! :thmbup:

 

[garublador]

I'm trying to improve overall distance because I am not as competitive as I'd like to be against younger guys that throw in the 400s and also stick their putts on longer courses.

but I now wonder if I even want to "re-make the wheel" and if this is worth the effort?

You answered that in the first thing I quoted. Is it worth it to be competitive with those younger guys or would you rather be stuck at your previous plateau? Your "bread and butter" is what's limiting your score.

 

[garublador]

I want to make sure I'm practicing these drills correctly.

First, you're doing the hammer pound drills, right?

1. I took one step, reached back and pulled through.
Q:Should I be doing what more closely resembles my drive with full X-step?

The other way around. Your full drive with an x-step should go through the same motions you find to be most effective as discovered in these drills. In other words, you start from no x-step and then build your x-step around what gives you the strongest hammer pound.

 

[BrotherDave]

First off, I've never heard that before. I am pushing my thumb down on the disc from start to finish. What you're saying makes a lot of sense as I've had a little pain in my arm today, but I played a lot of golf this weekend.

And you're right I didn't follow through at all, I was worried I would pull left, so I stopped short. I was doing an abbreviated version of my throw and I can see what you're saying may very well be causing that.

Those are things I can definitely work on Brother Dave!!! Thank you!! :thmbup:

The most pressure applied should be b/w your thumb and index finger, the pinch part of the grip, the rest of your fingers are just there to help stabilize the disc in your hand, you never really apply a lot of pressure with them. The pinching fingers are your rip point, they stay loose but firm and then you really "grip it to rip it" right before the hit. Overcoming that tendency to want to throw the disc by releasing it (opening your hand) and instead gripping the snot out of it at the precise instant you'd want to release it is the difference b/w half hitting and fully hitting it.

Don't thank me, citizen, thank DGR and their disc nerdery.

Of course, if I have any of this wrong I welcome the corrections.

 

[josiahv]

So I've been doing this discing down thing lately and seeing decent results. I've been just using my buzz and wizard the last few times I've been out with moderate success when it comes to distance and accuracy. I added my Dx leopard today and I'm still turning it over pretty strongly. Am I giving it too much arm speed and getting too little snap? Should I just throw at 70-80% power?

 

[BrotherDave]

So I've been doing this discing down thing lately and seeing decent results. I've been just using my buzz and wizard the last few times I've been out with moderate success when it comes to distance and accuracy. I added my Dx leopard today and I'm still turning it over pretty strongly. Am I giving it too much arm speed and getting too little snap? Should I just throw at 70-80% power?

DX Leos are understable out of the box and get very flippy with use. A seasoned DX Leo would be very intolerant of OAT also. If you are releasing it with a healthy amount of hyzer and little to no OAT it shouldn't turn and burn instantly, or it's too understable for anything but rollers.

This is why I prefer players use more neutral stability discs like Comets and Cheetahs for form diagnosis issues, if you're turning over a flippy disc it could just be that it's flippy to begin with. If you were turning over a new DX Gazelle for example, it would tells us more about your form, presumably.

 

[dodgeball]

I do like the idea of the 'tweener' disc, now I need to get my hands on a gazelle or cheetah to try out. What speed, on the Innova scale, would u guys rate a Polaris LS? I picked one up thinking it was a fairway driver, but I'm having trouble throwing it. Would any driver that u have to anny to fly right be considered to fast of a disc to throw?

 

[Mike C]

PLS is a fairway driver. If you're having to throw with anny to throw a disc straight, you can try going to a less stable mold, lighter version of the same mold, or a slower mold.

 

[BrotherDave]

I do like the idea of the 'tweener' disc, now I need to get my hands on a gazelle or cheetah to try out. What speed, on the Innova scale, would u guys rate a Polaris LS? I picked one up thinking it was a fairway driver, but I'm having trouble throwing it. Would any driver that u have to anny to fly right be considered to fast of a disc to throw?

It should fly pretty similarly to a Cheetah, what plastic did you pick it up in? You might have a freaky one with a really high PLH, I had a Sirius JLS once that was pretty beefy.

 

[dodgeball]

It should fly pretty similarly to a Cheetah, what plastic did you pick it up in? You might have a freaky one with a really high PLH, I had a Sirius JLS once that was pretty beefy.

PLH?? The one I got is in the base, Millenium plastic. I've heard that it could be as high as a 9 speed. I'm thinking maybe it's just a little too fast, at least throwing backhand, for me.

 

[BrotherDave]

PLH?? The one I got is in the base, Millenium plastic. I've heard that it could be as high as a 9 speed. I'm thinking maybe it's just a little too fast, at least throwing backhand, for me.

It can't be that fast, Garu wouldn't recommend it to noobs every other post.

PLH = parting line height. It's the line of flashing that separates the two mold pieces, the seam on the rim. The higher it is, the more overstable and vice versa.

Are you sure it's a Polaris and not a JLS or Orion LS? You've got me stumped on this one.

 

[josiahv]

DX Leos are understable out of the box and get very flippy with use. A seasoned DX Leo would be very intolerant of OAT also. If you are releasing it with a healthy amount of hyzer and little to no OAT it shouldn't turn and burn instantly, or it's too understable for anything but rollers.

This is why I prefer players use more neutral stability discs like Comets and Cheetahs for form diagnosis issues, if you're turning over a flippy disc it could just be that it's flippy to begin with. If you were turning over a new DX Gazelle for example, it would tells us more about your form, presumably.

I have DX leopards, a Champ leopard, and few dx teebirds on the way for fairway drivers will the champ leopard or a dx teebird once I beat it in a little work for this?