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- Thread starter Vonbeezy1
- Start date
A disc on a rock in the middle of an OB river? Yes, it's OB.
Disc on the other side of an OB river from the basket? Depends on the course. Some say yes, some say no. ALWAYS ask the tournament director if it isn't made clear on the course you are playing.
Tfire25
Double Eagle Member
What if the river is dry in some parts and there is no marked ob like the rock in my previous post? Thanks btw.
There is no single answer. OB and its boundaries are defined individually for each course by the designer and/or the TD of the tournament. The only way to get a definitive answer for any given situation is to ask the TD or designer. Without knowing the course in question, no one here will be able to give you an accurate answer.
It all depends on how the TD defines the OB.
It could be "surrounded by water" or "in or beyond the water".
It could also be poorly defined, or poorly marked, and then you've got issues.
It could be "surrounded by water" or "in or beyond the water".
It could also be poorly defined, or poorly marked, and then you've got issues.
Dana
Double Eagle Member
Yes, it is frustrating playing when the OB lines are not well defined. I'm assuming you are talking about hole 5 at Morton. I don't like having the creek OB unless its raging, or flagged/lined out. Not sure about the whole "island/dry disc = safe" part. With the creek barely flowing, it is very difficult to define everything. If I was there, I would have urged the TD to call it casual (assuming there was minimal water [flow]).
Having a player pack item for the first X amount of players is fine as long as- 1. It was promoted that way. 2. The TD did not take $ out of entry fees and not give players who didn't get a beanie something of = value. Basically what Chuck mentioned earlier.
I can see how if you didn't know that you would have to drive off site to get payout how that would be frustrating. It seemed that it was pretty well promoted that this was the case, especially since it was the grand opening of the shop. It is a heck of a lot easier for a TD that runs a store/shop to leave their merch and do payouts there. I know it can be a pain to drive in the opposite direction after an event. Google maps says 15-20 minute drive from the course to shop
Side note: I believe Aces & Chains in Joliet does it this way and if you can't make it, you can go online and use your payout there...
Sorry that you had a bad experience. Come play The Marilla Mash (4/19) and Swinging Bridge Open (5/10). I will have OB all clearly marked and will do my best to run a fun event. I would give Johnny a break though, he's a good guy who loves disc golf and puts a lot of effort into running tournaments. Maybe in the future he will bring (at least some) merch to the events for those who don't want to or can't make it to the shop afterwords. Talk to him about your issues though, feedback is a good thing. It would be unfortunate for you to stop playing his events though, as he is the only one running them on those awesome Peoria area courses.
Having a player pack item for the first X amount of players is fine as long as- 1. It was promoted that way. 2. The TD did not take $ out of entry fees and not give players who didn't get a beanie something of = value. Basically what Chuck mentioned earlier.
I can see how if you didn't know that you would have to drive off site to get payout how that would be frustrating. It seemed that it was pretty well promoted that this was the case, especially since it was the grand opening of the shop. It is a heck of a lot easier for a TD that runs a store/shop to leave their merch and do payouts there. I know it can be a pain to drive in the opposite direction after an event. Google maps says 15-20 minute drive from the course to shop
Side note: I believe Aces & Chains in Joliet does it this way and if you can't make it, you can go online and use your payout there...
Sorry that you had a bad experience. Come play The Marilla Mash (4/19) and Swinging Bridge Open (5/10). I will have OB all clearly marked and will do my best to run a fun event. I would give Johnny a break though, he's a good guy who loves disc golf and puts a lot of effort into running tournaments. Maybe in the future he will bring (at least some) merch to the events for those who don't want to or can't make it to the shop afterwords. Talk to him about your issues though, feedback is a good thing. It would be unfortunate for you to stop playing his events though, as he is the only one running them on those awesome Peoria area courses.
Just wanted to clear things up here. I live here in Pekin where the shop is and have been helping him with setting up the shop and trying to keep people happy. Before I go on, I do not mean to sound like I'm attacking you at all, just want to set things straight so other people aren't turned off.
1. He did bring about 5-6 boxes with a good variety of discs for payout AT the course in case the trip to the shop would be inconvenient. On top of that, he also offered to contact him in between rounds to get his contact info so he could ship you what you would want from your payout. It was announced on the site and at the tournament. He used to bring all his merchandise to tournaments, but with his grand opening, he wanted to entice people to come there. Now, he would've brought his merch to the course, but it was also this places one year anniversary since he is working with a local shop. So with them having a lot of people there, it would have been extremely difficult to get all of the merch in and out, and things would have been really late to make it to the grand opening of the shop afterward. (On top of that, I helped him move into a new house last week and then all of his merch into his new shop this past week. Needless to say it has been a busy week for him, lol).
2. As Dana said, it is only a 15 minute drive from the course to the shop, so yes, around a 30 min round trip total if you're coming from up north or east. But in case people needed to get home in time for something, that's why he offered to mail discs to people for their payout.
3. As far as the OB goes, I've been to tournaments all over that state the disc is OB if the disc is "completely surrounded by water". I will agree with Dana on this one as well, saying hole 5s creek is on and off with the casual water and I too thought it would be casual. However, I didn't think the OB was poor defined. As long as it wasn't completely surrounded by water then you are fine, ie. being half in the water, half on the land.
4. The players pack was also on the facebook page and he posted several updates stating "Only *so many positions* left for the ams to get the players pack, don't miss out." or something like that. Looks like other people have made that clear on this post.
Again, I promise I'm not trying to just jump down your throat, but wanted to clear things up for you and for anyone else considering playing some of the tournaments in the area again. We have great courses and people in central IL with the right intentions, but sometimes it's hard to please everybody. I'm also sorry you had a bad experience with it, but we do hope to have you back playing some of the tournaments here in the future. I know I was happy with the tourney, not so much my shooting but everything else I thought went well. Thanks!
1. He did bring about 5-6 boxes with a good variety of discs for payout AT the course in case the trip to the shop would be inconvenient. On top of that, he also offered to contact him in between rounds to get his contact info so he could ship you what you would want from your payout. It was announced on the site and at the tournament. He used to bring all his merchandise to tournaments, but with his grand opening, he wanted to entice people to come there. Now, he would've brought his merch to the course, but it was also this places one year anniversary since he is working with a local shop. So with them having a lot of people there, it would have been extremely difficult to get all of the merch in and out, and things would have been really late to make it to the grand opening of the shop afterward. (On top of that, I helped him move into a new house last week and then all of his merch into his new shop this past week. Needless to say it has been a busy week for him, lol).
2. As Dana said, it is only a 15 minute drive from the course to the shop, so yes, around a 30 min round trip total if you're coming from up north or east. But in case people needed to get home in time for something, that's why he offered to mail discs to people for their payout.
3. As far as the OB goes, I've been to tournaments all over that state the disc is OB if the disc is "completely surrounded by water". I will agree with Dana on this one as well, saying hole 5s creek is on and off with the casual water and I too thought it would be casual. However, I didn't think the OB was poor defined. As long as it wasn't completely surrounded by water then you are fine, ie. being half in the water, half on the land.
4. The players pack was also on the facebook page and he posted several updates stating "Only *so many positions* left for the ams to get the players pack, don't miss out." or something like that. Looks like other people have made that clear on this post.
Again, I promise I'm not trying to just jump down your throat, but wanted to clear things up for you and for anyone else considering playing some of the tournaments in the area again. We have great courses and people in central IL with the right intentions, but sometimes it's hard to please everybody. I'm also sorry you had a bad experience with it, but we do hope to have you back playing some of the tournaments here in the future. I know I was happy with the tourney, not so much my shooting but everything else I thought went well. Thanks!
Except if OB is defined as "In the water" or "surrounded by water", then any dry spot becomes inbounds.
The players pack and voucher are nothing I haven't seen before, and is actually fairly common for lower tiered events (in fact, my daughter and I just signed up for a C-Tier where the first 80 got a disc and there are 120 slots)...just look at the Women's Global Event this year. The first 500 ladies registered (got my daughter in on that one too!) get a really awesome players pack from the PDGA and various sponsors. Granted, a lot of the WGEs will have their own players packs as well, but it's nothing unheard of. Voucher thing is what it is. I play tourneys in Denver which are sponsored by local shops. It's a 45 minute drive from where I live to Denver...and that's if traffic is good. On the two occasions I have won a voucher, I just held on to them until I was in the area, and you always end up buying more than the voucher anyway.
The big thing I see is the OB question. This looks to me, as an outside observer, as a classic clash of "house rules" versus "standard rules." The PDGA rulebook very clearly leaves OB up to the TD for that exact reason. A certain course may have something that, to a non-local player, would clearly be OB, but has never been played as such (which sounds like what happened in this instance) and in that case it is up to the TD to determine that. It sounds like the TD didn't explain it very well, especially with that many people complaining about it. That's the kind of question you should ask in the players meetings. I know during most meetings I'm always eager to get out and play and sometimes stuff like that doesn't get asked. In that case, you are well within your right to call a provisional and then seek out the TD or another official to make the call. Just make sure your cardmates know that the provisional was called.
The big thing I see is the OB question. This looks to me, as an outside observer, as a classic clash of "house rules" versus "standard rules." The PDGA rulebook very clearly leaves OB up to the TD for that exact reason. A certain course may have something that, to a non-local player, would clearly be OB, but has never been played as such (which sounds like what happened in this instance) and in that case it is up to the TD to determine that. It sounds like the TD didn't explain it very well, especially with that many people complaining about it. That's the kind of question you should ask in the players meetings. I know during most meetings I'm always eager to get out and play and sometimes stuff like that doesn't get asked. In that case, you are well within your right to call a provisional and then seek out the TD or another official to make the call. Just make sure your cardmates know that the provisional was called.
No it doesn't. If the dry spot is an island in the middle of OB water, the dry spot is not in-bounds. It's the same argument as a tuft of grass sticking out of the middle of a sidewalk...the grass isn't in-bounds just because it isn't concrete. Everything contained within the edges of the sidewalk (or the water) is OB.
Which just underlines how ineffective saying "in the water" or "surrounded by water" is as a definition of OB, especially if it changes from day to day or hour by hour. Stake it, paint it, string it, something to make sure it's crystal clear for every player.
If you want to argue that a random "island" of dry land in the middle of OB water is in-bounds, explain where and how you mark that lie to play from it?
Harrishabitat
PDGA Numbers 60630 AND 34207
- Joined
- Aug 27, 2009
- Messages
- 678
You can't just redefine the out of bounds rule. The rule clearly states a disc is considered out of bounds if it is surrounded by an out of bounds area...so by definition a dry area in the middle of water (that has be declared OB) is considered OB. This isn't even up for debate is it?
Hi there everyone. I am the TD in questions and would be glad to address all the feedback.
First off I am sorry your experience wasn't as good as you expected. I hope that you will come back and give it another try. The circumstances for this event were a little unusual for one of my events due to the timing of things, but I did do my best to accommodate everyone.
For entry fees and player pack concerns. http://www.pdga.com/files/2014 PDGA Tour Standards.pdf Page 5 of this link will give you the suggested entry fees for event at he PDGA. You said costs were $35 for most division. Simply not true. Entry fee for Adv was $35, Int/Rec $30 and Nov/Jr/Women $25, Open $45. Suggested fees are Open $50, Adv, $30, other Divisions $20. Reason mine were slightly higher was to cover the costs of the player's pack, which is not required to have by the way. Here is exactly what was posted on every advertisement for the event:
April 5th 2 rounds of 18 at Northwoods in Morton
Check in 7:30-830
Player meeting at 9
Tee off at 930
Open $45
Adv$35 Int/rec 30
Jr/novice, am women 25
Non-PDGA members pay $10 fee
5 for ace/ctp
Register at www.plasticaddicts.storenvy.com or by PayPal (family and friends option) to [email protected]
First. 50 registered ams get Plastic Addicts beanie for players pack!
After the event everyone is invited to come to the Grand Opening of Plastic Addicts Pro Shop located at the Steam Punk Smoke N More shop at 403 Radio City Drive, North Pekin, IL
Free hot dogs, chips , water
Door prizes, etc.
Here is a link as well. https://www.facebook.com/events/237202609799968/
A couple of weeks into this I realized that having my Grand Opening and payouts somewhere else would be a difficult thing so I did post this a week before the event as well:
"There will be a small amount of discs available for purchase on site at the tournament. The payout will be done at the new Plastic Addicts Pro shop located at 403 Radio City Drive in North Pekin (about a 10 minute drive from the course. If anyone can not come to the shop, I will accommodate them with a direct payout at the course but the selection of discs will be very limited due to the grand opening of the shop. I will also be glad to ship your prizes to you if you dont find something you like the day of the event, or you can hold onto you Plastic Addicts fun bucks till the next tournament you come to. If your looking for certain discs specifically, post here and I will try to bring them to Northwoods. Questions feel free to ask."
As far as those who did not get a players pack I did state that first 50 would get one. The beanies were late in arriving which made things confusing. I did offer $10 vouchers for those who did not get a players back. If you didn't get one please let me know and I would be glad to get you one. Most Td's by the way will up charge you to the full MSRP for your items. I do not. I only upcharge them a couple of dollars so that you can still have a good payout.
On the OB issue. I clearly defined it in the players meeting that if the disc was "completely surrounded by water" that it was OB. We had a significant amount of rain the night before so I thought it might come into play. http://www.pdga.com/rules/official-rules-disc-golf/804-the-throw/80404-out-of-bounds Here is the rule from the PDGA.
As far as the drive to the shop here are some MapQuest directions to the Walmart http://www.mapquest.com/#f75aa887b0d8a1b51547e8bc which is about 2 miles away from the course. (For some reason the park isnt coming up in the maquest search). It say 10.92 miles and about 13 minutes travel time. Add 2 for the difference and your looking at a 15 minute drive. Is that so unreasonable?
Were things perfect? probably not. Could I have done things differently? Probably
I appreciate your critique and will try to do better next time.
I would have addressed this sooner but I was in Bowling Green all week.
First off I am sorry your experience wasn't as good as you expected. I hope that you will come back and give it another try. The circumstances for this event were a little unusual for one of my events due to the timing of things, but I did do my best to accommodate everyone.
For entry fees and player pack concerns. http://www.pdga.com/files/2014 PDGA Tour Standards.pdf Page 5 of this link will give you the suggested entry fees for event at he PDGA. You said costs were $35 for most division. Simply not true. Entry fee for Adv was $35, Int/Rec $30 and Nov/Jr/Women $25, Open $45. Suggested fees are Open $50, Adv, $30, other Divisions $20. Reason mine were slightly higher was to cover the costs of the player's pack, which is not required to have by the way. Here is exactly what was posted on every advertisement for the event:
April 5th 2 rounds of 18 at Northwoods in Morton
Check in 7:30-830
Player meeting at 9
Tee off at 930
Open $45
Adv$35 Int/rec 30
Jr/novice, am women 25
Non-PDGA members pay $10 fee
5 for ace/ctp
Register at www.plasticaddicts.storenvy.com or by PayPal (family and friends option) to [email protected]
First. 50 registered ams get Plastic Addicts beanie for players pack!
After the event everyone is invited to come to the Grand Opening of Plastic Addicts Pro Shop located at the Steam Punk Smoke N More shop at 403 Radio City Drive, North Pekin, IL
Free hot dogs, chips , water
Door prizes, etc.
Here is a link as well. https://www.facebook.com/events/237202609799968/
A couple of weeks into this I realized that having my Grand Opening and payouts somewhere else would be a difficult thing so I did post this a week before the event as well:
"There will be a small amount of discs available for purchase on site at the tournament. The payout will be done at the new Plastic Addicts Pro shop located at 403 Radio City Drive in North Pekin (about a 10 minute drive from the course. If anyone can not come to the shop, I will accommodate them with a direct payout at the course but the selection of discs will be very limited due to the grand opening of the shop. I will also be glad to ship your prizes to you if you dont find something you like the day of the event, or you can hold onto you Plastic Addicts fun bucks till the next tournament you come to. If your looking for certain discs specifically, post here and I will try to bring them to Northwoods. Questions feel free to ask."
As far as those who did not get a players pack I did state that first 50 would get one. The beanies were late in arriving which made things confusing. I did offer $10 vouchers for those who did not get a players back. If you didn't get one please let me know and I would be glad to get you one. Most Td's by the way will up charge you to the full MSRP for your items. I do not. I only upcharge them a couple of dollars so that you can still have a good payout.
On the OB issue. I clearly defined it in the players meeting that if the disc was "completely surrounded by water" that it was OB. We had a significant amount of rain the night before so I thought it might come into play. http://www.pdga.com/rules/official-rules-disc-golf/804-the-throw/80404-out-of-bounds Here is the rule from the PDGA.
As far as the drive to the shop here are some MapQuest directions to the Walmart http://www.mapquest.com/#f75aa887b0d8a1b51547e8bc which is about 2 miles away from the course. (For some reason the park isnt coming up in the maquest search). It say 10.92 miles and about 13 minutes travel time. Add 2 for the difference and your looking at a 15 minute drive. Is that so unreasonable?
Were things perfect? probably not. Could I have done things differently? Probably
I appreciate your critique and will try to do better next time.
I would have addressed this sooner but I was in Bowling Green all week.
jchoate7
Eagle Member
So from the OP, the complaints were...
TD says those that didn't get the beanie should have received a $10 voucher, and if a player did not they are still entitled to it. Sounds more than reasonable to me.
TD says the ruling was "completely surrounded by water". I read that to mean that landing on a pebble island in the middle of a body of water is still OB. If the TD thinks otherwise, he is either doing a poor job of explaining himself or he's incorrect in his interpretation of what "completely surrounded by water" means.
TD says he accounted for this with an albeit limited supply of product on site and has also offered to fulfill payouts by phone/mail AND he will honor tournament vouchers at the store or at a future event. Seems perfectly reasonable to me.
By and large it seems like the complaints are more a matter of preference and convenience than a shortcoming on the tournament's part.
TD says those that didn't get the beanie should have received a $10 voucher, and if a player did not they are still entitled to it. Sounds more than reasonable to me.
TD says the ruling was "completely surrounded by water". I read that to mean that landing on a pebble island in the middle of a body of water is still OB. If the TD thinks otherwise, he is either doing a poor job of explaining himself or he's incorrect in his interpretation of what "completely surrounded by water" means.
TD says he accounted for this with an albeit limited supply of product on site and has also offered to fulfill payouts by phone/mail AND he will honor tournament vouchers at the store or at a future event. Seems perfectly reasonable to me.
By and large it seems like the complaints are more a matter of preference and convenience than a shortcoming on the tournament's part.
Now that we have both sides of the story, I will have to agree with JC.
This just goes to show no matter how much you do for the players or spell things out in advance, there will always be someone like Vonbeezy to bitch about it online.
ScottyLove
Double Eagle Member
Past weekend... very clearly stated that hole #5 was a special CTP for only those who had a special bag tag keychain. Picture of said keychain is at the tee and inside the ziplock baggie on top of the basket to help remind everyone.
So after parking my drive about 2 feet outside the currently marked CTP, I went on about my business... only to find out 4 holes later at a backup that the guy who wrote his name down didn't qualify by having the keychain. He said, "they'll figure it out in the end"... but meanwhile I or even someone else may have really won the CTP. We'll never know.
To make it worse, he accepted the CTP prize anyhow knowing he shouldn't.
Sure it's a special rule, but at every tour stop, there are special CTPs sponsored by disc manufacturers when you MUST use one of their discs and such. It's not rocket science to figure out since they are all well marked, but for some reason, some folks just don't get it or don't care.
Those manufacturer CTPs generally aren't on the course during rounds. They're a between/after rounds kind of thing where you make a special point of attempting it. Much easier to get compliance on those since you usually have someone running the deal and telling people what to do.
But yeah, the guy marking, winning and taking the prize on a CTP he wasn't eligible for is dumb. People fail to pay close enough attention to what they're doing and where they are way too often. It's not just disc golfers, it's people in general...just lost in their own world, oblivious to their own environment.
jobwilson
Eagle Member
#AMSGONNAAM
teemkey
* Ace Member *
Didn't he have to show his keychain to acquire the prize?
