Handicap accessibility?

[Halcón]

Wisconsin has 2 courses that are made specificially with the handicapped in mind so that they can also play this wonderful game

Which courses? I'd love to see how the courses are designed.

 

[Tfire25]

I'm in no way saying it should be all accessible. It would completly take away from the majorities experience just to accommodate the few. That sounds like an ******* thing to say but my favorite courses have elevation and creeks.

I'm just really worried about the future. The Ada has only gotten worse in the past 5 years. I think the best thing to do is get out ahead of this deal because it will come up and we need to have an answer when it does.

P.s. it took me awhile to post to the replies because I was tearing up bicentennial in Crowley. I shoot a -8 for my third best round ever! I was -3 after 4 and it just clicked today. Bogey free round!

 

[bholy08]

OP:

Check out this course - http://www.dgcoursereview.com/course.php?id=4022&mode=ci
It is a Federal Park. Has a full 18 holer across the lake. Very unique course especially with the bells on top of the baskets.

Edit:

Course description - This course is unique in that it has a tier system to describe the accessibility of the course.

Tier 1 - Four Holes in a loop that has wheelchair access throughout with tees adjoining path.
Tier 2 - Wheelchair access to holes and acceptable grade for wheelchairs.
Tier 3 - Wheelchair access to holes, but challenging terrain features.

 

[harr0140]

Milwaukee has two courses specifically for the handicapped . . . although only one is truly wheelchair accessible and usable with a path running around the entire course, although the tees and baskets are all within about 15-20' of the path. The other course has no sidewalk or pavement to be used but it is on a property that has programming geared towards people with disabilities.

They are called Wil-O-Way Grant and Wil-O-Way Underwood. I helped install the baskets and place the tee markers for both of these courses and we have a guy in the office for people with disabilities that is pro disc golf, so it could turn into more opportunities.

Grant http://www.dgcoursereview.com/course.php?id=5041

Underwood http://www.dgcoursereview.com/course.php?id=5042

 

[prerube]

I want all basketball courts to have baskets set at 8' so I can dunk. :wall:

Is there a clamoring somewhere from physically handicapped people that want to play disc golf? Or is this just a politically correct idea run amuck? Seems silly to fix a problem that doesn't exist.

It exists, but seems unimportant because it does not affect you. I was doing a consulting job and was asked to find a place for a 28 year old man in a wheelchair to play disc golf. I recommended Calvert, he refused and I told him about Hot Shots. He only played once baccause it was so difficult for him. But he does not blame disc golfers, he said, "do you try to change courses that are too difficult for you?" He just took it as a sign that disc golf was not the activity for him.

 

[captain jack]

Word is that Silver Lake Excalibur in Everett, WA is handicap accessible. I live right by there, and I assure you that it is not. Maybe all of the baskets and teepads are, but the area between? Not so much.

Not ALL of the first 9 were designed to be wheel chair friendly, but the course was designed to include accessible holes, like #4,5,6 and 9, which were all designed to take advantage of the paved pathway nearby.
Since the course used to be an old RV campground, paved paths and roadways are common, and we used some of the flat parking areas for tees. You can roll a chair easily up onto the rubber fly pads, which dont have steep edges. The City of Everett liked the idea of accessibility, this did affect the course layout and final approval.
Its not a big deal really, but, since there is NO other courses in the greater Seattle area that have ANY accessibilty, I think its great for someone who isnt 100 % enabled to at least have a chance to play at all.

I have not seen a person in a chair playing there yet, but, I'm sure its only a matter of time.

 

[prerube]

Here is a post from a wheelchair DG thread with links to more info:

here are related threds that may give some more information on this topic.
Wheelchair golf
Course design for individuals with disabilities

there is also a place for people with mental disabilities to play...its called Ohio

 

[Mongo97]

Ball golf is a slightly different animal in that the courses are designed to accommodate a cart. If you can get a cart there, in theory you could get someone less mobile there as well.

Disc golf I think would fall further into the rules governing state parks where accessibility goes to a point and then that's the limit. Sure, there may be paved trails, but if you want to walk the animal trails, they're not paving and regrading them for you.

 

[Tfire25]

Maybe I just think of it differently than most because my mind is just so set on trying to make everything accommodating for the handicapped. Every sidewalk has to be poured with less than 2% crossways and less than 5% lengthways, anywhere a wheelchair can turn has to be 2%, and there has to be a 3 foot gap anywhere a wheelchair needs to gain access. I could go on foreverrrr. Heights of tables, hand dryers, and drinking fountains.

The other part of this is, if you have more than 1 water fountain only one has to be accessible. The same goes for bathrooms and pretty much everything else except sidewalks. So maybe it only has to be 1 hole? I could make a valid argument for this.

Scarpfish, now that they have a route to the other side you may be able to argue this point as well.

 

[Johnny_Crunch]

How would you retrieve a shot in the thick woods in a wheel chair? ADA disc golf would have to be played in an open field.

 

[bettsjc]

Here in Charlotte, PnR doesn't pay a dime for the courses being put in. All baskets/teepads/signs/benches/other equipment are funded by the CharlotteDGC. I promise you there would be no way to make a course ADA compliant UNLESS it were actually built around existing sidewalks and such. There may be a course or two that would be layed out in such a way where it is accessable to persons with disabilities, but if our city's club had to comply with ADA standards I promise you that there would not be another course built in the area.

This is not a debate to whether or not we should cater to persons with disabilities. All I know is that it costs a good chunk of change to pour 18 concrete tee pads. There is no possible way the club could afford to run a concrete sidewalk through half of one of our courses just for the fact that it would cost way too much.

If there were standards set in a certain area about DG courses being required to meet ADA standards there is no way it could expect all courses to comply, unless there was funding coming from elsewhere.

 

[bettsjc]

And if you are disabled and need to play disc golf, I suggest moving to Florida

 

[Halcón]

It looks like the example courses posted are very similar. Nice short holes, ADA paths, very little elevation change, clean, mown grass...etc.

These courses are awesome for those who want to enjoy the game, and would otherwise be unable to on a regular course.

Just out of curiosity, how many of you have seen someone disc golfing in a wheelchair? I've never seen anybody, but maybe it's more common than I imagine.

 

[bholy08]

Just out of curiosity, how many of you have seen someone disc golfing in a wheelchair? I've never seen anybody, but maybe it's more common than I imagine.

never seen it.

 

[RnROutlaw]

I've never seen it in person, but it exists. I don't feel like voicing my opinion, as I have before on the subject of people with disabilities here, but the ADA exists for a reason, and it's not to "cater" to people with disabilities.

 

[Halcón]

^^^ Thanks for posting the vid.

 

[Lubbock Jason]

Awesome vid RnROutlaw

 

[Speedly]

I've never seen it in person, but it exists. I don't feel like voicing my opinion, as I have before on the subject of people with disabilities here, but the ADA exists for a reason, and it's not to "cater" to people with disabilities.

I would agree that the original intent of the ADA was only to provide accessibility to those who are less abled than most of the population. But I think it's hard to argue that the ADA situation has grown waaaaay beyond that now, to the point where it is actually taking away from others.

My example case is one that is local to me, a restaurant by the name of the Squeeze Inn. It's a burger joint (that makes awesome burgers, by the way... be sure to get one if you're ever in the area) that was run in a very, very, very small building, one that has probably been there for eighty years or more. They are well known in the area, and have been featured on the Food Network show Diners, Drive-ins, and Dives.

Part of the place's appeal was that it was built so small, that there were maybe six barstools to eat at, and everyone else had to eat outside on the patio. If you were lucky enough to get the barstool inside, you maybe had three feet to the wall behind you. The rest of the place had to be used as the kitchen facilities.

As part of having a place that was so small with a client base that was so large, they would gladly seat people outside, do to-go orders, and occasionally go so far as to deliver to people's houses for those who were unable to make it to the location (for whatever reason). This included disabled people that were not able to drive themselves to the Squeeze Inn.

A long story short, a disabled person sued the Squeeze Inn, claiming ADA violations. While I do not have or know the precise details of the lawsuit, my understanding of it is that the case was about clearances being off by what amounted to quarters of inches, and things like that.

Due to the lawsuit, the Squeeze Inn was forced to shut down. Thankfully, they are back up and running in a different building, but while the new location has the same great food and awesome service, the atmosphere is just not the same. The size of the old place is really what made it quaint and inviting.

The owner and employees of the Squeeze Inn would routinely bend over backwards to make sure everyone was welcome and left with smiles on their faces. But it only took one person who was out for blood to ruin it for everyone else.

After my rambling here, my point really comes out to be that ADA should be about accommodating the disabled when it is reasonable to do so. This does not mean, however, that the experience should be the exact same for everyone. It kind of turns into a slippery slope argument if you try for it - if you force a course to be wheelchair accessible, then what comes next, and where does the chain finally stop?

Please don't get me wrong - I am all for building courses that are wheelchair accessible if the point behind those courses' design is to be handicapped-accessible from the start. And I do understand that no one has yet forced a course to change its design to be ADA accessible - I'm speaking entirely in rhetoric in this post.

But, in a long-winded, roundabout way, I guess I'm trying to say that while the intent of the ADA is not to cater to disabled people and just to provide accessibility; the fact of the matter is that in recent years, there have been way too many cases of lawsuits that show otherwise, and the above is one such case of many.

I hope I've conveyed what I'm trying to say in respectful terms - I've really tried quite hard over this long post to do so. After reading it, please remember that just because you may not agree with me does not mean I've been disrespectful or rude (but please do call me out if you legitimately find the way I've said something to be so).

I'm happy to discuss my opinion further with people if they wish. :hfive:

 

[Halcón]

From the ADA website regarding Title II:

If the public entity can demonstrate that a particular modification would fundamentally alter the nature of its service, program, or activity, it is not required to make that modification

This must be why public DG courses are able to get away with it. Making a DG course ADA compliant would fundamentaly alter the nature of the activity, and program.

Also:

A public accommodation is a private entity that owns, operates, leases, or leases to, a place of public accommodation. Places of public accommodation include a wide range of entities, such as restaurants, hotels, theaters, doctors' offices, pharmacies, retail stores, museums, libraries, parks, private schools, and day care centers. Private clubs and religious organizations are exempt from the ADA's title III requirements for public accommodations

And, and far as changing existing courses:

Q. What does the term "readily achievable" mean?

A. It means "easily accomplishable and able to be carried out without much difficulty or expense."

Q. Must alternative steps be taken without regard to cost?

A. No, only readily achievable alternative steps must be undertaken.

From this, I gather that if it's not financially feasible, it's not required. Changing any existing course so that it's wheelchair and ADA compliant would be nearly impossible for most clubs to accomplish financially.

 

[BogeyNoMore]

there is also a place for people with mental disabilities to play...its called Ohio

Wow, didn't see that one coming! Perchance, did you ever attend the University of Michigan? Just sounds like something a Wolverine would say.