Help turn me into a real live disc golfer

[sidewinder22]

You want your shoulders/torso to turn back with the arm/disc more unfolding in place.

 

[Rastnav]

Yesterday I tried to implement some of the insights from my post on anatomy. Most specifically the baseball pitching video on what external rotation dominance does to the pitching motion.

Here are some hammer swings, with the timestamp at 31 seconds because I think it is closest to the one what I think I should be going for. Closest being a relative term:
https://youtu.be/m4GHvEnLo-s?t=31

I switched to a wrench because the hammer was going to "wrench" (ba-dum-psh, groan) my shoulder out of the socket if I kept going with it. Here is a slow mo of it, maybe mostly educational for how it differs from the hammer swing:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lbtTBkicRDU

Things I see:
- Fairly sure I need to reduce my x-step crossover or even go back to the crow-hop I've been doing. I think this was just out of feeling I needed to have speed to drive off my back leg.
- The heavier weight of hammer vs. the wrench seems to really help my trunk rotation by just holding me back. I really have no idea how to make that happen in a regular swing with a disc, and maybe it's not necessary.
- The wrench swing is too long of a stride. It's also too high in the rear leg. I think I really need to concentrate on being down on the rear leg at full reach back. I was concentrating on the push to plant, but that's just making me push too early, I think.
- In the hammer swing, my left hip actually starts to rotate early enough to allow the knee to bend and move inward/forward rather than just extending and trailing. Not sure what all the keys are to making that happen. Probably related to how low I am on my rear leg when I drive.
- The one hammer swing I highlighted (vs. the other hammer swings in that video) seems to be more ... something better. Specifically related to my hips/pelvis, how they rotate, and how my trunk sits on top of them.
- My plant may need to be more in line, and maybe that would let my rear leg finish out and around instead of behind like a speed skater. Not sure how important that is. Don't know why it made me think of a speed skater.

But, not exactly sure where to go from here. Nor do I know if I'm on the right track. Nor do I have a clue how to apply this stuff to an actual throwing of the disc.

 

[Brychanus]

^ I think there can be progress but let's get the wrenching out of the shoulder and I suggest working from the hit back. After looking at some of your older posts, I think you never quite encoded the powerful hammer strike or slash through a defined hit point in front of you in good posture. Your current swing creates some separation and your body is swinging the hammer, but it's too much like your body is trying to direct it on a straight plane toward the line of play. I had this problem when I started swinging hammers.

Recommend we try a way to give your body clear strike or slash feedback safely. I agree with RowingBoats that once you trip the switch it makes a huge learning difference. Some people get it with hammer or tool throws, others with strikes.

Do you have something you can safely hit with the hammer or slash into with a wrench or blade on one leg like I did into my heavy bag in the hammer vid? Film that and we can probably get that sorted more quickly. If your body always knows where you're trying to get it to go, it helps you work backwards from there. It matters more to swing safely and in control: give it no more than 80% for a few swings. Better to fix it first so you don't hurt yourself.

Expectations matter. It has taken me at least several hundred swings with a hammer and disc over one leg into a target and then taking the target away and doing practice swings before it started to permanently stick. If you look at my form check over even just the past 3 weeks or so you can see how drastically my practice swings have changed to look more like I'm slashing something in front of me - it's because my body finally started to recognize the difference between a powerful hammer strike or slash thru a target vs everything else. This is part of the secret sauce in the Beto drills and why SW22 and others can throw so far on one leg. I will now never stop warming up with one leg throws for that reason!

FWIW I am only taking two steps right now because there is still a lot of tweaking I need to optimize hitting the strike thru my x-step. You can get somewhere mixing in the X-step too, but I was stunned at how much more quickly my body started to learn once I got better posture and slashes on one leg. I can ramble more but you get the idea lol

 

[Rastnav]

Do you have something you can safely hit with the hammer or slash into with a wrench or blade on one leg like I did into my heavy bag in the hammer vid? Film that and we can probably get that sorted more quickly. If your body always knows where you're trying to get it to go, it helps you work backwards from there. It matters more to swing safely and in control: give it no more than 80% for a few swings. Better to fix it first so you don't hurt yourself.

I went out and bought a heavy bag when you were extolling its virtue. Tried it. Felt bad, looked bad. Mostly just encourages me to muscle it.

More generally, every time I use drills or practice throws that have fewer than 3 steps it seems to lead to bad things. I mean both SW22 and my pro both said something along the lines of "stop doing one steps" at some point.

Perhaps this may be because they are all trying to do the "square peg, square hole" thing. Perhaps, they make assumptions about my anatomy that aren't true. Like the idea that I can have a relaxed arm and maintain a 90 degree angle. Or that I can actually get my hips internally rotated towards each other. IDK. I think the loopghost 360 drill (or whatever it's called) may depend on those things.

But I'll try again.

I can ramble more but you get the idea lol

Honestly, I really don't? You keep using the words "slash through" as if that's common DG nomenclature and I haven't seen anyone else use it. I don't know if this is me not having picked something up, or something else.

A sort of similar thing with people talking about "good leverage". Like, it's almost like you are looking for the opposite. The disc is light, but you want it to feel heavy. You are trying to getting a long lever to move as quickly as possible, requiring heavy load on the shorter side of the fulcrum. But ... maybe I have no idea what it's supposed to mean.

 

[Brychanus]

Not sure if the prior advice was to stop doing one steps, or to stop doing one leg throws. It's an important difference but you or SW22 could advise. Unless you already got direct feedback on your one leg (not one step) hammer or other tool swing at a target, that's what I meant to triage. Whether it's a heavy bag or not is not as important as what it teaches you about your own DG-like posture and swinging through a hit point with force and low impact on the body. So reducing the bad feel and bad look and muscling in that context is one potential place to start. In any case, up to you if you want to give that a try.

The slash through language is lifted directly from the seabas22 slash thru drill. The idea is that you swing through the hit or target. It is exactly the same concept as punching through a target, swinging a golf club or baseball bat, or pitching through a release with a follow through. I only ever convinced my body to do it when I struck the bag, but of course I'm sure it built on all the other drilling I did.

I don't focus much on exact angles anymore due to the variations due to form style and anatomy. I think they can be instructive but also can get people too focused on symptoms, not causes.

You want the heavy momentum and leverage you'd use on the light object, but on the disc. There's a very distinct difference in how it feels and looks on camera. It took some time with weights and hammers before I started to really get it, but of course mileage can vary across people. You've got some of it but there are some rhythm and swing path issues so the final swing has limited power and some potential stress at the shoulder.

 

[Rastnav]

Not sure if the prior advice was to stop doing one steps, or to stop doing one leg throws. It's an important difference but you or SW22 could advise. Unless you already got direct feedback on your one leg (not one step) hammer or other tool swing at a target, that's what I meant to triage.

I did some work with a hammer and heavy bag, but reading this, I'm wondering what exactly you meant by this. Do you mean one leg with no weight shift to the rear leg (rear toe on the ground like in the one leg drill video, which doesn't seem to have a hammer).

Or do you mean standstill, with weight shift to the back leg? That's what you seem to be modeling in these two videos.

 

[Rastnav]

Recommend we try a way to give your body clear strike or slash feedback safely. I agree with RowingBoats that once you trip the switch it makes a huge learning difference. Some people get it with hammer or tool throws, others with strikes.

Well, did some more today, so I'll just post them up. In slow motion because doing these inside means there isn't quite enough light to see what's really going on otherwise. But if that makes things harder to analyze I can give non slow motion ones.

 

[Brychanus]

^this really could be helpful if you bear with it/me. This is more or less where I would have suggested you start.

Any pain/discomfort/feeling bunched anywhere when you swing like that? Would guess maybe shoulder and elbow.

Your sequence looks decent as you head into swinging off the front leg, but let's give your body more space to swing and learn to maximize the force in the hit at low effort. Try stepping back away relative to the camera a little bit, and stepping maybe 6" further away relative to the bag. Keep staying nice and loose as you swing back and forward. You might find that you need to aim maybe 6-12" lower on the bag to hit it with decent impact- that's ok.

I want to see if changing the spacing sorts it all out or if there's another issue. What we want to happen is that your front shoulder stays more closed and stacked over your brace as you swing, and your shoulder and arm get a more forceful swing at lower effort.

When I first had it click I was surprised at how far in front of me the swing was and how large the swing felt relative to where my body was standing.

 

[Rastnav]

Any pain/discomfort/feeling bunched anywhere when you swing like that? Would guess maybe shoulder and elbow.

No pain or bunching up. If I do a bunch of them I end up feeling a little stressed/tired in the back of shoulder blade.

Try stepping back away relative to the camera a little bit, and stepping maybe 6" further away relative to the bag. Keep staying nice and loose as you swing back and forward. You might find that you need to aim maybe 6-12" lower on the bag to hit it with decent impact- that's ok.

So, I did some, but I think on re-reading a 3rd or 4th time, I may have misunderstood.

How am I supposed to change my position? Are you wanting to me set up more to the right of the frame as I have filmed it? or moving farther away from the camera towards the back of the garage?

Here is what I did, but I don't think that is what you wanted.

 

[Brychanus]

^ That already looks somewhat better. What I'm trying to do is get you moving so that when the hammer strikes the bag, you look somewhat more like this:

I do think your shoulder and hip differences may matter, but the thing you should have in common is that you want to give the swing as much space as possible behind the brace. Based on this last vid:

1. If I am the camera, either move 3-6" to my right (your left), or 3-6" away from me. Might be a combination of the two.
2. I think you're standing slightly too tall. Maybe get into a slightly deeper stance on the front leg - butt back just a bit more. You really want to feel like you can drop your weight into the leg and pump the ground with it to lead the swing.
3. Might as well try to keep that rear arm closer to the rear hip. Rear leg counterbalance looks ok for now.

When it's working you will feel like you're doing very little and the hammer head starts coming around fast and effortlessly. Individual difference: it might not make sense to your body unless you actually throw the hammer, but hitting the bag first will probably help you figure out how to maximize the swing since it has the contact point. Then you want to let that contact point be how you leverage out a hammer or disc into the throw.

 

[Rastnav]

1. If I am the camera, either move 3-6" to my right (your left), or 3-6" away from me. Might be a combination of the two.

I did 4 variations: 1 in the same position as before, 6" farther away, 6" farther right, both 6" away and right. The long tape line is on the inside line of the bag. The cross hatches are every 6" and the dotted line is 6" inside the long tape line. So my my front toe is somewhere between a foot and 18" away from the bag and 6" to a foot behind the bag.

2. I think you're standing slightly too tall. Maybe get into a slightly deeper stance on the front leg - butt back just a bit more. You really want to feel like you can drop your weight into the leg and pump the ground with it to lead the swing.

The whole "pump the ground" thing doesn't translate into anything I understand. I tried to sit deeper and finish with my weight farther back at contact.

3. Might as well try to keep that rear arm closer to the rear hip. Rear leg counterbalance looks ok for now.

I'm not sure this is the right idea. One of the things my PT buddy noticed about Rathbun's swing is that the rear hand is actually pushing away from the hip as it comes forward. I notice this is very different than a bunch of other players who get the hand and forearm very tight. He is thinking that's part of the key to getting torso rotation while maintaining lead arm angle given my shoulder mobility.

 

[txmxer]

Here is what I did, but I don't think that is what you wanted.

but that bag won't mess with you ever again!

 

[sidewinder22]

Going to hurt your shoulder hitting with it open. Keep your shoulders closed to target and hammer it or punch it. You should feel your lat engaged like holding extension at the top of a bench press/push up, pressing against/thru the bag or floor or wall or disc.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZlyD1ynQrh4#t=3m26s

 

[sidewinder22]

Pump the ground:

 

[Brychanus]

I'm not sure this is the right idea. One of the things my PT buddy noticed about Rathbun's swing is that the rear hand is actually pushing away from the hip as it comes forward. I notice this is very different than a bunch of other players who get the hand and forearm very tight. He is thinking that's part of the key to getting torso rotation while maintaining lead arm angle given my shoulder mobility.

Might be talking past each other. Notice how close Rathbun's rear elbow is to his rear hip or torso. From the first to second frame, his lower arm is still swimming through and counterrotating the swing just like every other top thrower. So you might find his posture more ergonomic but the action is the same.

 

[Rastnav]

Going to hurt your shoulder hitting with it open. Keep your shoulders closed to target and hammer it or punch it. You should feel your lat engaged like holding extension at the top of a bench press/push up, pressing against/thru the bag or floor or wall or disc.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZlyD1ynQrh4#t=3m26s

I'm not sure if you are saying all of the examples are open or not.

Am I right in thinking that the position I am in on the far left is closed and the one on the far right is open? And that the one on the right is what you are saying needs to be avoided?

Is the one on the left closed enough? And the one in the middle is still too open?

 

[Rastnav]

Might be talking past each other. Notice how close Rathbun's rear elbow is to his rear hip or torso. From the first to second frame, his lower arm is still swimming through and counterrotating the swing just like every other top thrower. So you might find his posture more ergonomic but the action is the same.

Yes, I see what you mean. But I'm talking about something slightly different. When I look at Rathbun compared to, say, Barella, his read hand is moving towards the camera much more, and is well outside the line of the runup.

(If you look at Conrad, he is in a whole different ball park. tight to his torso almost the whole way.)

It might be easier to see what I'm talking about if you just advance Rathbun's throw here frame-by-frame (on a PC, once paused, use "," and ".")

 

[Brychanus]

I'm not sure if you are saying all of the examples are open or not.

Am I right in thinking that the position I am in on the far left is closed and the one on the far right is open? And that the one on the right is what you are saying needs to be avoided?

Is the one on the left closed enough? And the one in the middle is still too open?

I'm looking at the action pattern rather than stillframes. It looks like your elbow is rolling down toward the floor early, leading to a slightly open shoulder - "closed" here means that it is still internally rotated going into the strike, and it starts externally rotating in the follow through (if you could actually smash all the way through the bag).

Starting here watch how SW22 swings slowly forward with that elbow still more or less toward the line of play - the elbow starts rolling down after the release point.

I started this by slowing doing the same with the hammer and slightly exaggerating it for some time BEFORE ever hitting the bag. I would slow down and try to feel it out in the air, then (slowly) try the bag again.

 

[Rastnav]

Going to hurt your shoulder hitting with it open. Keep your shoulders closed to target and hammer it or punch it. You should feel your lat engaged like holding extension at the top of a bench press/push up, pressing against/thru the bag or floor or wall or disc.

I'm not sure if you are saying all of the examples are open or not.

Am I right in thinking that the position I am in on the far left is closed and the one on the far right is open? And that the one on the right is what you are saying needs to be avoided?

Is the one on the left closed enough? And the one in the middle is still too open?

I'm looking at the action pattern rather than stillframes. It looks like your elbow is rolling down toward the floor early, leading to a slightly open shoulder - "closed" here means that it is still internally rotated going into the strike, and it starts externally rotating in the follow through (if you could actually smash all the way

OK, I think I'm still confused, Bryan, as that sounds like you are just describing supination?

The other possibility here is that the "closed" vs. "open" designation is not upper arm vs. chest, but line of shoulders vs. target line. This is what would be meant by open vs. closed in ball golf, whether we are talking about shoulders or hips.

So, I'm really not sure what thing it is I am supposed to not do/prevent in order to avoid injury.

 

[Brychanus]

Not supination. The lower arm action tends to correlate with what I'm talking about, but ignore the lower arm for a moment. I'm also not going to say "closed" or "open" to see if this gets the idea across. We are focusing on the motion pattern, not a static position.

I am talking about your elbow starting to point toward the floor before the hammer hits the bag.

Imagine that I amputate your lower arm below your elbow. You now no longer have a lower arm!

Then, you swing the upper arm and elbow stump toward the target. As you approach the target, you could be moving your upper arm at the shoulder joint such that the elbow is starting to point more toward the floor (externally rotating), or more toward the ceiling (internally rotating). Further, if you swung that arm with the elbow toward the target line, for it to maintain that elbow direction, your shoulder will be internally rotating. "Closed" refers to this last action, and is what SW22 does at the timestamp above to maintain his elbow leading and swinging into the release. Instead, you let the elbow roll down toward the floor before impact, which means that the shoulder is externally rotating.

Allow the elbow to lead the lower arm and hammer swinging toward the target. You may need to exaggerate swinging such that the elbow is rotating more toward the ceiling than the floor at first (without hitting the bag until you get this right).