Help turn me into a real live disc golfer

[sidewinder22]

Maybe slightly too staggered the way your feet are positioned, but don't think that is really your issue - your rear foot needs to flared/turned further back away from target at setup. You are kind of pigeon toed in with rear foot and restricting your backswing. Should be more like Hogan's diagonal stance but everything turned further back.
http://biokineticgolfswing.blogspot.com/2010/04/diagonal-stance.html

In the side view, your head/shoulder are remaining forward of your front hip in the backswing. Need to load the shoulder back behind the hip to the rear leg like a sling shot and tilt back inline to front leg axis coming into plant.

Try keeping your eyes on the disc all the way from address/aim to the top of the backswing and back to release.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mvGudQYfjD8#t=63s
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7IFO7J3AV5Y#t=5m25s

 

[Rastnav]

First off - do you play disc golf? Then you are a 'real live disc golfer'.

Well, right now I mostly huck plastic in a field, but I get your point. Thanks, Jiminy Cricket.

As for the rest, I figure it's easier to improve with better form right now, when I mostly am unmolded, than later on, when my plastic has been made into a Stego.

 

[Rastnav]

Ok, that all mostly makes sense. Just a few things I am wondering about.

In the side view, your head/shoulder are remaining forward of your front hip in the backswing. Need to load the shoulder back behind the hip to the rear leg like a sling shot and tilt back inline to front leg axis coming into plant.

This about where I get to at the end of my backswing, correct? And I am tilting my hips/spine towards the target, putting my head too far forward? If I get my weight shifted back with my spine/head in the middle of my hips I'll be in a better position?

Am I understanding that correctly?

Or is this about where I am as the disc reaches the midpoint of my body? That my weight has moved to far forward already?

Try keeping your eyes on the disc all the way from address/aim to the top of the backswing and back to release.

Yeah, I end up zoning out trying to feel the right form so that I don't get too target/"throw" focused, but I realize that has it's own drawbacks (and ends up with poor form anyway).


One last question, from that Steve Rico video, can I try and restate what is being said? Because if you look at what is actually happening(see attached), there is a ton of muscle engagement, it's just the right muscles at the right time?

So, is it fair to say that trying to throw "right" will feel easier, but much of that is getting "out of your own way", allowing the proper muscles to work at the proper time, getting more out of the effort you do put in?

 

[sidewinder22]

1. This about where I get to at the end of my backswing, correct? And I am tilting my hips/spine towards the target, putting my head too far forward? If I get my weight shifted back with my spine/head in the middle of my hips I'll be in a better position?

2. One last question, from that Steve Rico video, can I try and restate what is being said? Because if you look at what is actually happening(see attached), there is a ton of muscle engagement, it's just the right muscles at the right time?

So, is it fair to say that trying to throw "right" will feel easier, but much of that is getting "out of your own way", allowing the proper muscles to work at the proper time, getting more out of the effort you do put in?

1. Correct, top of backswing you are tilted targetward instead of away from target. I define weight as the pressure force a scale reads under the foot which is different than where your center of mass is located in space. Your center of mass is too far forward, but your weight is back. Your head/shoulders should be tilted and turned back further behind your hips coming into the plant to sling them forward to the target.

2. Correct.

https://www.dgcoursereview.com/forums/showthread.php?t=133319

 

[Rastnav]

Alright, with much sweat and pain, mostly of the emotional kind, I think I got somewhere. I accidentally deleted the video from behind, but here are two looks from the side:

3 regular speed throws:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1gHe590BTco

1 slow-mo through:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h9XV8ajGeOk

I think you will say that starting from a static position is "wrong", but I think I needed to that to get any sense of where the starting point of the move forward is. Hopefully this looks better than before. Although I think my spine is still slightly tilted toward the target, leaving my head too much over the front hip as I start forward.

One thing that I realized at some point today was that the thoughts of being relaxed, smooth, easy, etc. were, I think, directly leading to rounding and hugging. As my torso would start to rotate, being "relaxed" would let my upper arm start to trail and fall lower, leading to the elbow bending early, the disc being "behind" me, and a scooping motion in the swing. I tried to fix that by concentrating on feeling a "pull" from my shoulder to my elbow, with my elbow moving "out" (even though it's mostly maintaining angle) and "up".

Not sure if that is what some of the drills were intended to teach me, but, hopefully I have it more correct now.

I do have questions about disc/wrist angle through the throw, but maybe for another time.

So, how did I do?

 

[sidewinder22]

Yeah, not a fan of the static start. Your front foot is a bit turned too open and your stance is a bit too wide. Wide stance makes it harder to rotate.

Your front shoulder is not really turning back enough, I think you might be too tilted over to rotate further.

Your front shoulder ends up in your front ear. You need to tilt head back away from your shoulder(remain head neutral upright to shoulders) and push arm/disc out away from chest a big wide arc from elbow like hammering nail sideways into wall with closed shoulder. Not pull across in straight line with open shoulder.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q5xfv9jPqZs#t=8m26s

 

[Rastnav]

Lots (and lots and lots) of field work. Honestly not even sure which was is up at this point. I think I'm making progress, but then I'll look at video and see my self regressing on 3 things while working on something else.

Mostly trying to get my arm not to curl behind myself and up as I step forward, letting me pull the disc forward at least in the same horizontal plane. When I look at the video I honestly cant' tell whether or not my arm is getting trapped inside, and whether or not this pull is still "rounded". I feel like I'm maintaining angle between my upper arm and my torso, but I'm not sure.

Also, trying to get my hips and my shoulders to be fully turned away at the start forward of the pull, finishing my reachback as I plant. I think I usually succeed at that.

I've also been working hard to at least get my weight planted onto my lead heel, with my foot sideways to the target, transferring my weight diagonally from my back foot to my lead foot. I think I'm successful, but I wonder if I am overdoing the "diagonal" part.

Another thing I keep fiddling with is trying to get a grip that doesn't end up with a nose up release. Again, not sure there.

Hopefully I am at least making progress on something, rather than just getting further wrapped around my own axle.

FYI, in these videos my intended aiming point is the big tree at the other end of the field.

From the side, standstill with one step:



From behind, standstill with one step:

 

[sidewinder22]

Swing shoulder forward over knee. Nose over toes balanced on front leg.
https://www.dgcoursereview.com/forums/showthread.php?t=136487

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZlyD1ynQrh4#t=3m26s

 

[sidewinder22]

 

[Rastnav]

Here is where we are at today. I keep working at not collapsing my shoulder angle, but it's a tough slog. Sort of a 2 steps forward, 1.99 steps back kinda process. I'll think I have it, then look at video and bad habits have taken over again.

I like that I'm athletic (for me) in my walk up and swing. Knees bent, head over toes, ass out. My plant foot isn't rotated too the target and I rotate around that front plant fairly well.

I think I mostly managed to get rotated to somewhere near the power pocket without collapsing my shoulder angle or pulling too early. I am leaving the disc behind me somewhat, but I think most of that is just not getting to a fully straight elbow, which is something I'm semi consciously doing as a way to help keep my shoulder angle. Not sure.

I'm leaving my torso behind a little before I get into my last step, forcing me to get back to a centered position as I rotate. I think that's partially timing, because I think I am turning back too early.

I don't know how I feel about how my last step moves laterally/diagonally to the target, so that the I'm wide on the tee box. I think it happens because I'm trying to get my hips turned and I'm using that lateral step to encourage it. I also think I'm still starting to open before my front foot actually lands.

Not sure how much I'm really getting into a braced position? Maybe my last step is too slow and deliberate to really get me into a brace. Not "bouncy"/"on my toes" enough?

Rear view:


Side view:

 

[sidewinder22]

Door Frame Drill, your left shoulder should be moving targetward ahead of your chin and right shoulder pulled back behind chin and left shoulder. Your feet should be just very slightly staggered in door frame drill, note how my feet are closer inline so my shoulder swings right over the feet back and forth. Your stance is very spread out and shoulder stuck more between your feet and can't really swing your shoulder. Play around with your rear foot placement and feel where your body/weight gets the most leverage from the rear leg against the door frame, arm/shoulder should be totally relaxed and pulled taut as you hang from the door frame and leading/dropping the hips/CoG forward. Your right shoulder should feel pulled back like a sling shot or bow and arrow ready to sling forward as soon as you let go and drop 1-2" into the front heel.

 

[Rastnav]

Door Frame Drill, your left shoulder should be moving targetward ahead of your chin and right shoulder pulled back behind chin and left shoulder. Your feet should be just very slightly staggered in door frame drill, note how my feet are closer inline so my shoulder swings right over the feet back and forth. Your stance is very spread out and shoulder stuck more between your feet and can't really swing your shoulder. Play around with your rear foot placement and feel where your body/weight gets the most leverage from the rear leg against the door frame, arm/shoulder should be totally relaxed and pulled taut as you hang from the door frame and leading/dropping the hips/CoG forward. Your right shoulder should feel pulled back like a sling shot or bow and arrow ready to sling forward as soon as you let go and drop 1-2" into the front heel.

There are a few things I struggle to understand about the door frame drill. Maybe I'm reading the wrong things into the drill, maybe I'm misunderstanding what things are supposed to feel like, etc.

One is the creation of tension on the right/throwing shoulder at the very beginning of the forward motion. I've been fighting and fighting and fighting to stop getting tension in my shoulder at that point. If I'm tensing the shoulder at that point, it's a sign of shoulder collapse/pulling early. It's probably the most continual mistake that I make.

I get that I want the arm to pull itself taught later in the swing, as I come out of the power pocket. But I don't understand how I could possible feel that kind of tension early in the forward swing without having done something wrong.

The second has to do with flexibility. I'm wondering how flexible I need to be to get my shoulders rotated to the "proper" position. To the extent that I can't do that, I think the drill might be counterproductive, in that I'm likely to be in an overall poor position if I'm trying to manipulate myself into rotating farther than I would be able to in an actual swing.

Related to that, I'm wondering about where I need to position my center of mass relative to the door, and how that's modified by my overall frame length. It seems like not positioning close enough or far enough to the frame is going to lead to some sub-optimal stuff.

 

[sidewinder22]

When you say shoulder tension it sounds like you are trying to actively pull with your shoulder muscles.
Shoulder should be loose and pulled taut like ball on string or olympic hammer throw from the start of the backswing all the way to the finish.

I think this shows you have the mobility to get there. You need to play around with your rear foot placement to find where you get the most leverage. Video yourself doing door frame drill.

 

[Rastnav]

When you say shoulder tension it sounds like you are trying to actively pull with your shoulder muscles.
Shoulder should be loose and pulled taut like ball on string or olympic hammer throw from the start of the backswing all the way to the finish.

I think this shows you have the mobility to get there. You need to play around with your rear foot placement to find where you get the most leverage. Video yourself doing door frame drill.

I found that video about the myotatic reflex very interesting. Never heard of that and I'm sure it's one of my issues. "Loose" and "pulled taught" feel like opposites to me.

Here is a video of me doing the the door frame drill. I don't know what exact sort of leverage I'm supposed to be looking for and every time I sink down into my right hip, I see my front shoulder begin to try and rotate and collapse. But then when I look at your video of you doing it, I see what seems like those same little micro- movements, so IDK. But I don't think I'm getting what I'm supposed to out of it.

 

[sidewinder22]

Move your feet closer inline and splayed/turned out some. Should be a little more bouncy in the drill, bouncing your weight deeper coiled into the drill and getting pulled/recoiled backwards out of drill if you hold on.

 

[Cowabungapizzabomb]

As for the "loose" and "pulled taut" confusion...if youre swinging a heavy hammer back and forth, your shoulder can be relaxed "loose" and your arm will still be "pulled taut" by the weight of the hammer. The idea is to get your body in a position where the power comes from the release of the energy that pulled taut, which saves you having to muscle it by tightening up the shoulder.

 

[Rastnav]

As for the "loose" and "pulled taut" confusion...if youre swinging a heavy hammer back and forth, your shoulder can be relaxed "loose" and your arm will still be "pulled taut" by the weight of the hammer. The idea is to get your body in a position where the power comes from the release of the energy that pulled taut, which saves you having to muscle it by tightening up the shoulder.

But, you aren't supposed to feel that until the very end of the swing, correct? After you get to the power pocket.

If I'm supposed to feel taught but not pull at the very beginning of the foreword swing, I despair. I'm just trying not to pull early at this point.

 

[sidewinder22]

 

[Rastnav]

What I concentrated on the most in this field session was the timing of my turnback (start of leaving the disc behind) so that I didn't begin until my back foot touched down. That kept my weight much more centered so that I was not leaving my torso behind along the line of the throw.

I also I worked on putting my lead foot down more along the line of the throw so that I wasn't stepping so wide across the tee box, but had my feet more towards the back toe and front heel being in line.

Tried start with the disc out wider, so that I would leave it wider, and thus collapse my shoulder less.

All of that netted me ~20 feet on my putter shots, which mostly finished between 200 and 230 instead of my normal 180 to 210. I did start to get a little tired at the end, and I started trying to throw too hard, which lost me some distance and form, which you can maybe see in the film from behind.

Slow motion from the side:


Slow motion from behind:


I did do some earlier work to increase my turn, but I think I needed to fix the timing of the reach back first. I did at least establish that I can get fully turned back.

I think I need to work on fully incorporating that full reachback next. I also think I need to do something about how I plant my rear foot and push off. I'm not really getting rear hip to rotate forward, I think I'm dragging it using the front hip.

 

[sidewinder22]

Stop bending your knees and sticking your butt out in the setup, note how your spine is extended and body tense.

Stand up and relax, only slight bend in knees and hips, spine into flexion navel tucking toward belt buckle so your shoulders and arms hang loose and can swing freely.