how many penalty strokes?

[mrtho]

saw this posted on reddit by u/iSeeth

Guy tees off and clips a tree sending his disc about 90 degrees to the right into some trees and shrubs. The trees and shrubs are overgrown with honeysuckle vines creating a canopy about 15 feet above the ground. There is no two-meter rule.

We go to look for the disc. "What color?" Dark blue. "How high did it hit?" About twenty feet off that tree (pointing). "Did anyone see it come down?" No.

It is thick up in the canopy. Nobody has started a clock for a lost disc search.

After a few minutes, the card following comes down to help. After about 30 seconds one of them spots the disc, points it out, and heads back up to the tee pad.

Another member on the first card has an extendable pole with a hook. He uses it to sort of hang straight down to show where to mark the disc on the ground. He says, "Go ahead and throw and then I'll pull it down." The guy pitches out and the guy with the pole pulls down his disc. Except, it isn't his disc.

What are the options? What would you do?









Everybody agrees that he is returning to the tee but there is an argument of how many penalty strokes argument:

A) He returns to the tee playing 3 because the penalties do not stack because the lost disc superseeds the misplay as it was thrown first and not realized til after the misplay. Rule 801.02 H A throw or an action that is subject to penalty under more than one rule is played under the rule that results in the most penalty throws; or, among rules that call for an equal number of penalty throws, the rule that was first violated.


B) Him throwing from the wrong lie (because the disc in tree wasnt his) is a misplay and a totaly differnt action from losing the disc as such he gets the stroke for the lost disc + one penalty stroke for losing it + one penalty stroke for the misplay and is on the tee throwing 4

I origionally posted he would be throwing 3 because i didnt take the misplay into account but now im not sure and am leaning tward 4. Everyone agrees he is on the tee again but is he throwing 3 or 4?

 

[hiflyer]

I vote (A)

811
F.Types of misplay:
1.Incorrect Lie. The player has played from a lie that is not the correct lie. For example, the player has:
...
b.Thrown from a lie other than that established by the thrown disc;
...
If no subsequent throws have been made after the misplayed throw, that throw is disregarded. The player plays from the correct lie and receives one penalty throw for the misplay. If an additional throw has been made after the misplayed throw, the player continues play and receives two penalty throws for the misplay.

There probably should've been a provisional.

 

[sidewinder22]

So we know there is a misplay, and those rules must be applied first. We don't actually know if the disc is lost or not.


1. If the disc is not lost, and misplay is discovered before throwing again, then the player has the option to re-throw from actual lie with 1 penalty, or option to re-throw from tee with 1 penalty. Misplay throw is disregarded, but 1 penalty applies. Player is throwing 3rd shot from actual lie or tee regardless of option.


2. If the disc is not lost, and misplay is discovered after throwing again, then the player has no choice, but to continue playing out and adding 2 penalty to total throws including the misplay.

-----------------------------------------------------

3. If the disc is lost, and misplay is discovered before throwing again, then the player has no option but to re-throw from tee with 1 penalty and misplay throw is disregarded. Since the lie never actually changed, this is all considered as one action and penalties are not stacked, only 1 penalty is applied. Player is throwing 3rd shot from tee.

IMO this should be recorded as a misplay rather than a lost disc because there was an extra throw that is not accounted for on the misplay. - To other witnesses that misplay throw might be misinterpreted as a practice throw if it was recorded as a lost disc.


4. If the disc is lost, and misplay is discovered after throwing again, then the player has no option but to continue playing and add 2 penalty to total throws. Misplayed throw is counted. Lost disc doesn't stack on to misplay penalty as it's in the same action.

 

[mrtho]

If im reading you correctly SW then if he threw his misplayed disc again then he takes +2 making the throw his 5th (one in the tree, misplayed throw, 2x penalty throws and now throwing 5)

In ALL other cases he is throwing 3?



Just asking cause 811 isnt real clear on this because he played from a mark that wasnt established by his throw then it says throw is disregarded but add one penalty

 

[sidewinder22]

If im reading you correctly SW then if he threw his misplayed disc again then he takes +2 making the throw his 5th (one in the tree, misplayed throw, 2x penalty throws and now throwing 5)

In ALL other cases he is throwing 3?



Just asking cause 811 isnt real clear on this because he played from a mark that wasnt established by his throw then it says throw is disregarded but add one penalty

In cases #2 & #4 he would be throwing 6. Tee + misplay 1 + misplay 2(+2 penalty) = laying 5 and throwing 6 unless misplay 2 was a hole out for 5. The second throw after the original misplay would have to have been thrown in these cases. Both misplayed throws are counted plus 2 penalty.

In cases #1 & #3 he would be throwing 3. Tee + misplay 1 penalty = laying 2 with re-throw, throwing 3. Misplay throw is disregarded, but penalty is applied.

 

[cheesethin]

(Just following up on here as well as reddit to get most eyes)

I'm pretty sure the lost disc throw and the misplay throw are treated as two separate actions and therefore receive a penalty stroke each.

From the Rules Q&A

QA-MIS-3: I missed a mandatory on my drive, but we didn't realize it until after I had made another throw. What do I do?

Your second throw was a misplay because you made it from an incorrect lie. It should have been made from the drop zone (or from the tee if there is no drop zone). Since you caught your mistake after a single misplayed throw, you don't count or play that misplayed throw. Instead, you get one penalty throw for the misplay. Your next throw is from the correct lie for the missed mandatory. The penalty for missing the mandatory still applies since it was made before the throw that was a misplay.

This I think is directly analogous with the original scenario - the lost disc penalty still applies and the misplay penalty applies.

Throwing from the tee again for 4.

 

[cheesethin]

This makes sense to me, otherwise, the entire concept of 'misplays' risks becoming redundant. If the misplay penalty can be ignored 'because the lie hadn't changed' then that seems to undermine the concept of what a misplay is - ie you are playing from the wrong lie.

 

[cheesethin]

So we know there is a misplay, and those rules must be applied first. We don't actually know if the disc is lost or not.


1. If the disc is not lost, and misplay is discovered before throwing again, then the player has the option to re-throw from actual lie with 1 penalty, or option to re-throw from tee with 1 penalty. Misplay throw is disregarded, but 1 penalty applies. Player is throwing 3rd shot from actual lie or tee regardless of option.


2. If the disc is not lost, and misplay is discovered after throwing again, then the player has no choice, but to continue playing out and adding 2 penalty to total throws including the misplay.

-----------------------------------------------------

3. If the disc is lost, and misplay is discovered before throwing again, then the player has no option but to re-throw from tee with 1 penalty and misplay throw is disregarded. Since the lie never actually changed, this is all considered as one action and penalties are not stacked, only 1 penalty is applied. Player is throwing 3rd shot from tee.

IMO this should be recorded as a misplay rather than a lost disc because there was an extra throw that is not accounted for on the misplay. - To other witnesses that misplay throw might be misinterpreted as a practice throw if it was recorded as a lost disc.


4. If the disc is lost, and misplay is discovered after throwing again, then the player has no option but to continue playing and add 2 penalty to total throws. Misplayed throw is counted. Lost disc doesn't stack on to misplay penalty as it's in the same action.

1 - Throw from actual lie for 3 (tee shot + misplay penalty). If player wants to re-tee, one further penalty, throw from tee for 4 (tee shot + misplay penalty + optional re- throw penalty)

2 - What you said

3 - Throw from tee for 4 (original tee shot + misplay penalty + lost disc penalty)

4 - Right answer, but wrong reason - the lost disc penalty is disregarded because once you have made a subsequent throw after a misplay throw, then the original fork in the space time continuum is disregarded.

 

[krupicka]

Nobody has started a clock for a lost disc search.

This happens way too often, and as a TD it really ticks me off. When groups do not start a three minute timer, this can cause huge backups and affect the rest of the event. I know no one likes losing a disc and that players seem to abhor assessing penalties on other players, but these actions have a bigger impact than on that single player.

 

[mrtho]

I vote (A)



There probably should've been a provisional.

A provisional for what? I threw a blue disc and saw it hit the top part of that tree and there is a blue disc in that tree nobody is gonna guess that that wasnt their disc. At the time he threw the misplay he was convinced that he was at his mark

Sure you could have said "Im gonna throw a provisional in case that isnt my disc in the tree" but most people would not think that. It is obvious the OP thought it was his because if there hadnt been someone to knock it down he would have countiued play and not realized it wasnt his til he returned to knock down his disc later.

 

[mrtho]

The more I think about it the more i am sure he would be throwing 3 from his lie if found or 4 from the tee.

If his disc is found then he gets one from the tee and a misplay penalty so lying 2 throwing 3

if lost it is matter of semantics and if you wanna argue that the "misplay" and the tee shot are one action and the misplay doesnt count because you never changed your lie fine you win that but rule 809.03 says

A practice throw is any throw that is not made as a competitive attempt to change the lie, except for a throw that is made either to set aside an unused disc or to return a disc to a player and that travels less than five meters in the air. A drop is not a practice throw. Practice throws are disregarded.
A player receives one penalty throw for making a practice throw.

Convince me that the throw you made from under the tree was a throw to set aside a disc and was less than 5 meters. NOPE that was a "throw not made as a competitive attempt to change your lie" this was your argument not mine so do you want +1 for a misplay or +1 for a practice throw to go on top of your +1 for losing your disc?

 

[hiflyer]

A provisional for what? I threw a blue disc and saw it hit the top part of that tree and there is a blue disc in that tree nobody is gonna guess that that wasnt their disc. At the time he threw the misplay he was convinced that he was at his mark

Sure you could have said "Im gonna throw a provisional in case that isnt my disc in the tree" but most people would not think that. It is obvious the OP thought it was his because if there hadnt been someone to knock it down he would have countiued play and not realized it wasnt his til he returned to knock down his disc later.

Sorry, should've been more clear. It was an extra thought, nothing to clarify my stance on (A).
There should've been a provisional after the initial tee shot, after it went careening into the canopy. There is a high probability the disc may be lost, so a provisional should be taken just in case. After he had found "his" disc, thrown, realized the mistake, he wouldn't have gone back to the tee, just kept throwing from the provisional with the extra strokes added. Otherwise, if he hadn't found "his" disc, he would just use the provisional. I was just thinking of time saving. That's all

 

[kenjiac]

Throwing 4 from the tee if he can't find the original disc or 3 from where the disc is found.

 

[sidewinder22]

Ok, I agree ^.

 

[mosman253]

so since he went back to the tee its a lost disc penalty and a 1stroke missplay penalty. Reteeing on his fourth stroke essentially.
If he continues from the missplay penalty its a 2 stroke penalty, but does the lost disc penalty stack? If it was good out seems almost advantagous to continue.?

 

[Steve West]

...Sure you could have said "Im gonna throw a provisional in case that isnt my disc in the tree" but most people would not think that. ...

The ones who read this thread will. There's no downside.

 

[sidewinder22]

so since he went back to the tee its a lost disc penalty and a 1stroke missplay penalty. Reteeing on his fourth stroke essentially.
If he continues from the missplay penalty its a 2 stroke penalty, but does the lost disc penalty stack? If it was good out seems almost advantagous to continue.?

If you know you misplayed the first shot before the second shot, then you can't choose to continue the misplay.

I don't think you could retroactively declare a disc lost after playing out the misplay 2. You never actually played from that lost disc lie(re-tee), so it can't be stacked.

 

[roblee]

As described, the card determined the lie. Isn't that a factor to consider?

 

[joecoin]

Never mind the rules, who kept the found disc?

 

[JeremyKShort]

I guess that's a good argument for verifying that it's your disc.