I am going off on my own, a totally new approach

[Bradley Walker]

I have a hard time reconciling the "passive" throwing arm with the classic "lead with the elbow" mantra. Is that compatible, and I'm just thinking about it wrong?

Hold your arm out straight from your shoulder. Now bend your elbow.

Now your elbow is leading.

 

[ThrowBot]

Ok, I'm holding my arm out straight from my shoulder.
It does not feel very passive!
Maybe I need a rope?

 

[mizunodave]

Played 30 holes today committing to this. Placing my off hand on my ribs under my throwing arm or gently clasping my belt buckle.

From turn back with my right arm passive I focused on driving targetward with my left shoulder and leg, really focused on using that drive to slosh the disc as deep and hard into my armpit as I could. From there it all happens too fast to control.

Results were good, nothing amazing. No extra distance but accuracy was quite good. I haven't been throwing well lately and it felt like I was throwing as good today as I ever have so I'm grateful for that.

 

[Grippenripp]

Ok, I'm holding my arm out straight from my shoulder.
It does not feel very passive!
Maybe I need a rope?

I think I get what he's saying here after some experimentation. Good you arm iut, bend your elbow but don't tense your arm at at. Now when in motion that arm is passive. Footwork stays the same and so does everything else except that your trailing arm isn't in the way and instead of looking for something to do with it you're actively involving the left side of your core and that shoulder in the throw. Using it on the backside of the classic "trebuchet" for momentum .

 

[Maynard]

Played a round this evening doing this... WOW! I've always struggled to really feel the whip/snap and effortless power until now. I can finally feel the extension from my elbow. I cleared a field with my putter that I struggled to clear with a driver before. Just by focusing on my left side and getting through. Amazing...

Thanks for leading the way. I was trying to follow what you said to a T. Abandon any previous swing thoughts and trust this process you laid out. Amazing results tonight. I'm excited to get out there and practice now. Thank you!

 

[Grippenripp]

I've experts a bit with this. I won't say it saved my game of changed my life but I will say I can see it helping. We've been taught to keep the trailing side neutral and fail to recognize that people with good mechanics are actively driving through with the trailing shoulder. Why has nobody taught this yet? Good job Bradley. Thanks.

 

[SoludSnek]

This sounds similar to something I have been drilling at home and practicing in game. It started with me holding a foam yoga block next to my chest with my left hand during my reach back and pulling to find the "power pocket" that a lot of people describe. I found that if I did nothing with my lead/throwing arm and simply drove with my rear leg, driving my weight forward onto my lead leg my throwing arm naturally whipped forward into the power pocket position much faster then pulling with my lead arm.

 

[gammaxgoblin]

That's a great way to describe it, and as I was working with a friend yesterday on moving his arc out front, it was so plainly clear to me that our offset-shift only works if you get the arc out front.

When he was falling into old habits of throwing from the left shoulder, the power that was added by the off-set shift was ripping the disc from his hand well before the hit (sawed off shots).

I've tried to reinforce the idea for a very long time, that we're building a frame that gets powered up based on the magic that we can harness with the levers of our arm. The only muscle that I use is to hold the frame in place.

As I watched Bradley's throws from a few weeks back, I could see he was still using arm muscle to "crack the whip", which IMO is still too much muscle. Even if you're putting the arc in the right place, if you're actively arming the disc - I think you're missing out on letting the physics do the work for you. I'm not bagging on anybody at all, and maybe I was seeing something that wasn't there - but it boils down to the difference between throwing something forward and resisting your momentum and transfer it into the disc, so that you can do this:

And I believe that reading the OP, you're on the right path. It's so key to realize that:

1. Your weight shift is not targetward, but about 20-ish degrees more closed from your target and the implications of this with regards to throwing hyzer and anhyzer are pretty exaggerated (as my annie lines are now x-steps coming in from the right side of the teebox).

2. Muscle is really only used to hold the frame and posture in place.

3. Posture is so key to maintaining the angles to resist the redirection, if you're collapsing forward, you can't resist. If you're too far back, then you probably never posted up on the frontside. That's why I like the battering ram analogy or the idea of underhanding a medicine ball forward, it's worth actually doing.

Appreciate the thread and it's great to have some movement in the forum!

Has anyone ever calculated what the effective weight the disc is when it gets really heavy? I think something clicked in my understanding when you mentioned the medicine ball. It made me think noooooo...but wait...then about the postural strength needed to toss a medicine ball. Then i thought about how our muscles are so unable to do much with the disc just as its ripping out. ITS REALLY HEAVY at that time, so much so that our muscles cannot overpower that effective weight. I doubt im using the right terms, I am thinking about rotation and g forces, etc... Then It hit me, when thinking about your posture statement, that my posture needs to be just right. Stiff enough to be able to toss a medicine ball (the heavy disc) but not more but if its not taught enough, the torso collapses sapping energy from the arm. idk....kinda just stream of thoughts lol. Thanks for the thoughts.
And maybe the trailing shoulder/arm, trailing side of the body needs to be actively involved to attain that correct posture?

 

[sidewinder22]

Thanks for leading the way.

We've been taught to keep the trailing side neutral and fail to recognize that people with good mechanics are actively driving through with the trailing shoulder. Why has nobody taught this yet? Good job Bradley. Thanks.

Guess I'm nobody wagging the tail: :\
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Mpp7ZFLHK90&t=8m44s
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W2eWfwpahfk
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xZG5eW-1b-g
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GxnhM5amro0&t=24s
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2Awpyw2k3QM
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZlyD1ynQrh4#t=3m26s
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Nu4CzVnITlo

 

[RandyC]

Is this just a different way of saying stop strong arming the disc and get your body into it? Or am I getting this wrong?

 

[sidewinder22]

What is Kevin Jones? I don't think he is Swedish, I think he is from Arkansas.

Drew Gibson has roots from Sweden:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gnOu8ePftkw#t=3m50s
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wstfsTWvGFQ

So does Avery and GG and PP. Kallstrom and Astrom are actually Swedish:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vhQzVIX4cVs&t=44

 

[sidewinder22]

How exactly you "reach back" does not matter. For the actual throwing motion, you want to do that without actively moving you arm anyways. Use your body in a way that moves the arm through the correct positions. Just make sure your upper arm doesn't collapse against the chest. If you think about using the body as a power generator levering the arm, then it makes no sense to actively move the arm forward. You will lose the connection to your body and there is no way your muscles can make up for that.

edit: see how fast the lower arm is moving here in relation to the upper arm:

Exactly:

 

[sidewinder22]

I think it is real simple.

There are three arcs.

1. The central arc, which is simply the extension of your extended arm from your rotational center. the one we are addressing here.

2. The elbow folding and unfolding. I am starting to think that elbow folding is pretty much going to happen unless you are fighting it.

3. The arc of the disc around your wrist facilitated by your wrist bending back in the same manner as your elbow. This is more reaction than action. but I think many of the best throwers actively cockl their wrists back despite the claims to the contrary. I could post many examples.

I prefer to think about the throw in terms of levers and leverage rather than arcs. The body is a series of levers that becomes one big lever like a big hockey stick. You can actually see your levers. The arc is an imaginary line, which does not create leverage, rather the arc is the byproduct of leverage.

 

[Grippenripp]

Guess I'm nobody wagging the tail: :\
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Mpp7ZFLHK90&t=8m44s
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W2eWfwpahfk
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GxnhM5amro0&t=24s
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2Awpyw2k3QM
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZlyD1ynQrh4#t=3m26s
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Nu4CzVnITlo

Nah, youre not nobody SW

 

[Grippenripp]

The only thing different here is language when you get right down to it. BW is teaching to use the trailing side of your body in an active manner and all good form advice gets you to that point but without saying it directly. So when you read all these articles and watch these vids and talk to people and they say "one day it just clicked" this is what clicked. I didn't abandon all other form advice because of this thread, I dont think it's going in any "new direction" it's just focusing on a different point of the throw. Mostly were told what to do with the trailing arm. Here we're being told how to use it. Unless I severely misinterpreted somethings this is my takeaway. I feel like this fits in with the rest of all good form advice I have taken in.

 

[Bradley Walker]

The word arc actually accurately describes what is happening to the user. When you swing your arms around your lead leg and take your trailing foot off the ground it creates an arc. When you swing the disc around your wrist it creates an arc. When you bend your elbow it creates a small arc.

These terms are simple that explain what the user is seeing instead of worrying about what the physical effects are or the engineering explanation.

I can certainly say that the word lever does not adequately describe the main arc that is made by the core of the body. If you were to say I need you to make a lever around your core people would look at you like you're crazy. But if you say I want you to make a wide arc around your core people would probably understand what you were saying.

 

[Bradley Walker]

One of the main problems with teaching disc golf backhand throwing in particular has been discussing rotational movements in linear terms. I am no longer going to discuss rotational movements, which the human body does not move in linear motions, with linear terms.

 

[sidewinder22]

I'm a crazy engineer. Everybody's brains work and think in different ways, everything is a perception of our own brains. IMO there is no one absolute way to teach or think about the throw. When you are focused on a target, things can become perceived as straight even though the arc is obvious - like hammering a nail or using a battering ram (or tossing the weight of an object/disc), you want to pound the nail straight into a target, but to use the weight of the hammer you have to lever it from your body which creates an arc.

There is a difference between "flat swing plane" - how the body works, vs a "flat shot" - how the disc flies. Both are actually myths/perceptions.

McBeth is throwing on hyzer swing plane - his shoulders are not rotating flat - or parallel to the ground, they are rotating /. It's a tilted spiral. His arm is also rotating to keep the disc on plane throughout the swing. There is no such thing as straight with the human body, nature, or in the universe, unless you are a "Flat Earther". There is the saying that "feel ain't always real" and what feels "flat" or "straight" is not real.

When you walk "straight", you are actually rotating your hips, pelvis and spine, and shifting your weight/center of gravity left and right. If you trace your center of gravity walking from a drone view it would look like a snake locomotion or a sine wave. A straight line is a choppy abstract mathematical concept and perception of your mind. Sine waves actually occur in nature and are the epitome of smooth and efficient motion, this is how pendulums swing and strings vibrate, and you walk and swing a disc.

The disc is also released on slight hyzer and flips up to flat in the high speed flight phase and then glides. If the disc was actually released flat it would most likely end up turning over to anhyzer or roller during the high speed flight phase.

KJ most likely perceives in his mind from the first person perspective(with body/head turning) that he swings in a straight line(black trajectory line), yet from a third person perspective you can clearly see he arcs the disc like a sine wave or golden spiral that reverses direction in the power zone.

 

[sidewinder22]

Add in the G-forces experienced during the throw and some weird things tend to be perceived by our brains.

 

[keltik]

Watched the final round of the USDGC today. Kevin Jones and James Conrad on the lead card. Both throw with the left shoulder (surprised I noticed it on Conrad.) Both looked effortless with their distance. But both showed what you are describing here BW.