Is it legal to practice throw something other than a disc?

[Countchunkula]

I disagree - I think of it as a huge advantage. That extra bit of opportunity to get a feel for the heft of your disc or recognize that you weren't loading up for your weight shift makes all the difference in the world when you're having a potentially poor putting round, heading that off at the pass. Any time you take that extra throw you're getting a free opportunity to self-diagnose and correct that has zero consequences.

Maybe it varies player to player, but the opportunity to find a putting groove that I had lost (mid-round without the practice hurting my score) could be huge. When I'm missing putts badly, it's usually because I've lost the rhythm/feel of the finger push. Once I find that again, (sometimes it only takes a handful of putts), I'm back to making putts with regularity.

 

[Steve West]

I'm not quite sure I'd categorize it as cheating. I'm not convinced it's much of an advantage -- that he's making more putts afterwards, because he got a few extra practice putts in.

I believe the rule exists as a matter of order, in tournaments, rather than a matter of fair competition.

I play a lot of casual competitions where someone might throw a "revenge putt", or a 2nd drive to test a disc. Those would be violations in a tournament, and I'd call them if someone tried. But among ourselves, we count the score and win on the first shots.

Which isn't to say I wouldn't try to claim it, in jest and sour grapes, too. I once claimed a brother "cheated" in a round in which he beat me by about 17 strokes, because of a questionable O.B. ruling.

It doesn't matter - for this rule or for any other rule - whether there is an advantage or not.

 

[ChrisWoj]

Maybe it varies player to player, but the opportunity to find a putting groove that I had lost (mid-round without the practice hurting my score) could be huge. When I'm missing putts badly, it's usually because I've lost the rhythm/feel of the finger push. Once I find that again, (sometimes it only takes a handful of putts), I'm back to making putts with regularity.

I think it varies in a way that correlates with putting ability. If you're a terrible putter with no feel for the disc or your toss, you're not gonna fix it with a few practice putts. But as soon as you're consistent it makes a big difference. It might even matter a hair less once you get to the very tippy-top of the range with folk who practice so much they're almost always on.

It doesn't matter - for this rule or for any other rule - whether there is an advantage or not.

There are always areas of discretion in personal cash rounds.

 

[Steve West]

There are always areas of discretion in personal cash rounds.

That's covered in:
QA-APP-6: What rules apply if I'm playing in an unsanctioned tournament or any other non-PDGA round?
If it's not a sanctioned round, you and the other players could make up a rule that "it's only a penalty if you got an advantage". But PDGA rules of play are not dependent on deciding whether the player got an advantage or not.

 

[ChrisWoj]

That's covered in:
QA-APP-6: What rules apply if I'm playing in an unsanctioned tournament or any other non-PDGA round?
If it's not a sanctioned round, you and the other players could make up a rule that "it's only a penalty if you got an advantage". But PDGA rules of play are not dependent on deciding whether the player got an advantage or not.

I never said they were. What was the rationale for the creation of the rule in question?

 

[Steve West]

I never said they were. What was the rationale for the creation of the rule in question?

You mean the one that disallows practice throws? It pre-dates me, but it's not hard to speculate about why we wouldn't want to have to ask each player after each throw: "Did that one count, or was it a free practice throw?"

 

[ChrisWoj]

You mean the one that disallows practice throws? It pre-dates me, but it's not hard to speculate about why we wouldn't want to have to ask each player after each throw: "Did that one count, or was it a free practice throw?"

So you don't know if the rationale for that particular rule was predicated on it creating an advantage or not.

 

[DavidSauls]

It doesn't matter - for this rule or for any other rule - whether there is an advantage or not.

I'm not saying it's not a rules violation. Just the characterization of cheating implies an advantage -- and a better result.

For example, I wouldn't say someone cheated if they played barefoot (unless it was a really swampy course).

 

[DavidSauls]

I disagree - I think of it as a huge advantage. That extra bit of opportunity to get a feel for the heft of your disc or recognize that you weren't loading up for your weight shift makes all the difference in the world when you're having a potentially poor putting round, heading that off at the pass. Any time you take that extra throw you're getting a free opportunity to self-diagnose and correct that has zero consequences.

It never seems to help me when I do it in casual rounds.

But I'm a small sample size, and perhaps unhelpable.

 

[Steve West]

So you don't know if the rationale for that particular rule was predicated on it creating an advantage or not.

True, but if there ever was anything about enforcement depending on whether or not the group could come together in agreement about whether or not an advantage was created, it has since been eliminated.

Look at it this way: if breaking a rule doesn't create an advantage, no one has any reason not to follow the rule. So why add an unneeded element of subjectivity?

 

[mojorooks]

I disagree - I think of it as a huge advantage. That extra bit of opportunity to get a feel for the heft of your disc or recognize that you weren't loading up for your weight shift makes all the difference in the world when you're having a potentially poor putting round, heading that off at the pass. Any time you take that extra throw you're getting a free opportunity to self-diagnose and correct that has zero consequences.

I agree with you. There have a good number of occasion when I play with a new disc or whatever so throw a 2nd drive. It really seems to improve the round. But when I used to throw 'mulligans' I swear my rounds ended up poorly.

I also wouldn't call someone out (other than just giving them crap) for a 'revenge putt', but as noted by others, the expectation in tournaments are higher.

 

[seedlings]

Reddit means several thousand very active players now have the idea in their head. Expect to see practice throws where you never have before, unless it can clearly be determined illegal. Right now it's not clear.

Reddit..? Humph!

 

[ChrisWoj]

I agree with you. There have a good number of occasion when I play with a new disc or whatever so throw a 2nd drive. It really seems to improve the round. But when I used to throw 'mulligans' I swear my rounds ended up poorly.

I also wouldn't call someone out (other than just giving them crap) for a 'revenge putt', but as noted by others, the expectation in tournaments are higher.

Yeah, I only call him out purely to be a dick.

He can deal with it, though, if he wants to keep taking my cash a Jackson at a time. He's got all the bragging rights he can throw in my face on social media (and he does).

 

[philstine]

It's not illegal … yet, but wait: once Mikey "Mr. Do you know who I am" the Rules Committee chair gets wind of the thread, it will be.

 

[biscoe]

It's not illegal … yet, but wait: once Mikey "Mr. Do you know who I am" the Rules Committee chair gets wind of the thread, it will be.

I think you may have your Mike K's confused...

 

[Rastnav]

Yeah, I only call him out purely to be a dick.

He can deal with it, though, if he wants to keep taking my cash a Jackson at a time. He's got all the bragging rights he can throw in my face on social media (and he does).

I'm actually really confused here.

This isn't a sanctioned round. The cash you are playing for is a personal bet, not a tournament purse. The rules you are playing under are part of the agreement of the bet (whether you realize it or not). So, you can easily remedy this by simply saying "If you want to play for money today, we have to play by official PDGA rules".

Of course, you can't quite do that, as you don't have the required number of players on the card, nor a TD to decide any rules questions. However, you can also come to agreement on these issues. If he would rather play this as a casual round, with practice throws, etc, you don't have to bet him.

(Side note, aren't you in the UK? Or am I misremembering? It's weird to see you refer to a "Jackson" as a monetary unit, if you are. That's a specific reference to the American president Andrew Jackson, who is currently on the $20. It's like me saying I was betting a Loonie on something.)

As to whether practice putting/revenge putting is an advantage, well, he clearly actually feels it is. He clearly wants to keep taking the putts so much that he goes against your expressed wishes, therefore, he gains something out of it. It could be that it simply makes him feel better, and effects his mentality. That's an advantage. If if it just annoys you, and makes no difference to his play, that's still an advantage.

As to why the rule is in place, you don't need only one reason for a rule to exist. The simplest of all reasons is simply pace of play. The more people take practice throws, the greater the net effect on pace of play. Plus scoring shenanigans and disagreements. Plus the aforementioned advantages.

 

[ChrisWoj]

I'm actually really confused here.

This isn't a sanctioned round. The cash you are playing for is a personal bet, not a tournament purse. The rules you are playing under are part of the agreement of the bet (whether you realize it or not). So, you can easily remedy this by simply saying "If you want to play for money today, we have to play by official PDGA rules".

I only brought it up as an amused tangent that explained my particular interest in this thread. Tangential to my actual question about tossing a non-disc object, something that wouldn't generally be considered disc golf equipment.

I'm fully aware that I have the right to say that. And I did at the end of our round last week, though we haven't played since because of my schedule. He's simply too good for me to keep giving him advantages and throwing money away hand-over-fist. I'd like to hold onto some of my cash sometime.

If he would rather play this as a casual round, with practice throws, etc, you don't have to bet him.

Oh, he'd definitely rather play cash rounds. lol.

(Side note, aren't you in the UK? Or am I misremembering? It's weird to see you refer to a "Jackson" as a monetary unit, if you are. That's a specific reference to the American president Andrew Jackson, who is currently on the $20. It's like me saying I was betting a Loonie on something.)

O-H! I-O! Proud to be a Buckeye today, where voters rejected Issue 1.

As to why the rule is in place, you don't need only one reason for a rule to exist. The simplest of all reasons is simply pace of play. The more people take practice throws, the greater the net effect on pace of play. Plus scoring shenanigans and disagreements. Plus the aforementioned advantages.

Agree. In the case of this one - I think the heart of it is associated with competitive advantage, but I also think that the notion of one-shot-per-player-per-lie (or however you want to phrase it) is so deeply embedded in golf in general that the discussion of "why" probably never came up in disc golf. I'm guessing no one on an early rules-committee-equivalent ever said as a hypothetical "well, what if we just let people throw multiple shots and practice throws?" I'm guessing it came in from golf, and the focus was entirely on something similar to "what is the most elegant way to phrase this, to maintain a simple and comprehensive ruleset."

 

[biscoe]

Agree. In the case of this one - I think the heart of it is associated with competitive advantage, but I also think that the notion of one-shot-per-player-per-lie (or however you want to phrase it) is so deeply embedded in golf in general that the discussion of "why" probably never came up in disc golf. I'm guessing no one on an early rules-committee-equivalent ever said as a hypothetical "well, what if we just let people throw multiple shots and practice throws?" I'm guessing it came in from golf, and the focus was entirely on something similar to "what is the most elegant way to phrase this, to maintain a simple and comprehensive ruleset."

Actually golf rules allow for chipping and putting between holes but it is often disallowed as a local course condition.

Quoting the USGA Rulebook Player's Edition Rule 5.5: "While playing a hole and between two holes, you must not make a practice stroke.

Exception – Between holes you may practise putting or chipping on or near the putting green of the hole you just completed and any practice green, and the teeing area of your next hole. But such practice strokes must not be made from a bunker and must not unreasonably delay play.

 

[ChrisWoj]

Actually golf rules allow for chipping and putting between holes but it is often disallowed as a local course condition.

Well, clearly I have no idea what I'm talking about.

So this would be allowed between holes at, like, the US Open?

 

[biscoe]

Well, clearly I have no idea what I'm talking about.

So this would be allowed between holes at, like, the US Open?

I would guess that it would be disallowed at most events as a local course condition. (I knew nothing at all about this until the other day when I was looking up the golf rule about practicing during match play.)