ive adopted kaposia

[deadbody]

Was just out there yesterday, Kaposia looking better, my friend who was with me commented that he didn't think it looked anywhere near as nice as the other Pay to play courses (Bryant and Blue Ribbon) that he had played and he didn't think he would be coming back.

Looking at it from his point of view I think he makes a pretty valid point. There are still some crappy teepads, the signs are not good, there are few marked spots from one hole to the next (we missed a hole and had to backtrack, and I've played the course 10+ times in the last few years). The billy goat trail is terrible.

I love the difficulty of the course, I love the elevation coming into play and the woods, I dislike paying $5 per round to play on a course that is not super well maintained.

I wish the city of South St. Paul would understand that once you start charging for somethere there is an expectation that it will be maintained, and Kaposia is falling short of that expectation at this time.

 

[CFH-mn]

i was there yesturday grass was short had an awesome roller on 24.they even trimmed the bushs on hole 7.
i prefer the roughness of acorn, oakwood, lakewood, kaposia to thoughs cake eater parks. Bryant lake/eden prairie has more money spent on one hole than all 4 of the parks have spent on there entire courses in like ten years. Bryant lake should be called RED TIMBERS cause they used a million of the things on the course and there ugly.
If not for p2p the grass in kaposia would be knee high
if you have a quarter of a million dollars layin around kaposia could use it,
this is why p2p is so important, the parks and rec werent going to cutt grass as often or add anything new do to fuel/labor costs and a low budget.

i played bryant, blue ribbon and acorn over the weekend and the course with the most trash was Bryant lake fallowed by blue ribbon and the park with only 2 cans found was acorn! Acorn looked good and empty during the vikes game!

Kaposia- light of foot- indian tribe!

 

[CFH-mn]

5dollars for a course that takes over 2 hours to play a round, ill pay $2 an hr to play any course, they should make them all p2p just like ball golf, all you cheap skates can go fishing...

 

[CwAlbino]

Was just out there yesterday, Kaposia looking better, my friend who was with me commented that he didn't think it looked anywhere near as nice as the other Pay to play courses (Bryant and Blue Ribbon) that he had played and he didn't think he would be coming back.

Looking at it from his point of view I think he makes a pretty valid point. There are still some crappy teepads, the signs are not good, there are few marked spots from one hole to the next (we missed a hole and had to backtrack, and I've played the course 10+ times in the last few years). The billy goat trail is terrible.

I love the difficulty of the course, I love the elevation coming into play and the woods, I dislike paying $5 per round to play on a course that is not super well maintained.

I wish the city of South St. Paul would understand that once you start charging for somethere there is an expectation that it will be maintained, and Kaposia is falling short of that expectation at this time.

Yea because anytime someone starts p2p on a course it should look top notch the very next day... gimme a break.

 

[garublador]

i disagree, always cover graffity ASAP!

That doesn't answer the question. It barely makes sense. How does getting permission stop you from covering graffiti? You only have to get permission once and then it's done.

You can use your exact logic to say that tagging the benches in a certain way is an improvement and it should be done without permission. I'm surprised you can't see that.

If it's done with permission it's an improvement. If not, it's vandalism. Get permission, it will probably only take a phone call. Is it really that hard?

 

[jasonc]

spoiled in the great white north

I wish the city of South St. Paul would understand that once you start charging for somethere there is an expectation that it will be maintained, and Kaposia is falling short of that expectation at this time.

I wish we had 1 pay to play in the Chicagoland area. I would have to drive to Madison, WI (2.5 hour drive) or Lemon Lake, IN (1.5 hour drive) for a nice P2P course.

From what I understand, Kaposia was just changed to a P2P. If the local park district is collecting the $$, the park will not be immediately appear to be in better condition overnight. It is a government-run facility that is also partially funded by your tax dollars.

I'd be willing to bet within 2 years, the course will be much improved if the P2P policy stays in effect.

Most P2P courses have an option to buy a season pass. If you live in the area and you play the course on a regular basis, why not make a relatively small contribution to this great game?

At the end of the day, all of us pay taxes that keep our local government offices up and running. If you wanted to use a park pavilion for a day, would you be required to purchase a permit?

Why should disc golfers get a free pass to use park district equipment while others are forced to pay per use? Tradition? Good luck keeping the tradition alive without any money.

 

[Texconsinite]

Permission

mike and Fairway Flyerz clubhouse tells me what benchs have been retagged when i wristband and buy brownies.
Real signs are coming but there not cheap & they need 200k for escavating the george's gorge hole alone.
the course is awesome now, no crowds all summer, nice cut grass, new concrete pads, less dirty underwear on the course.
I found a field stone pile by hole 4, should be interesting what mike plans to do with them.

Sounds to me like he is working with Mike, and Mike knows what he's doing and is in the loop, so permission is not the issue here, since he has it.

I think his point is a very valid one. Be proactive, pick up trash and litter, and if you want to do more, like paint over grafitti, ask the guy coordinating it, and do it if he says its ok. Heres a person who has done just that.

Keep up the good work, and keep Mike in the loop on what you want to clean up, but thanks. Kaposia is an amazing course that was always a good mowing and some tee signs away from greatness, so Im thrilled to hear its p2p and improvements are being made. Keep the d-bags out, let the ones who appreciate this course enjoy it, and continue to keep it nice with their greens fees.

I agree about expecting more from a p2p course, but because Kaposia is already so good, it doesnt bother me as long as the mowing is kept up, and signage and pads are improved as time goes on. Hyland SSA, on the other hand- poor mowing, rough shape on some holes, id much sooner pay to play kaposia than that place.

 

[deadbody]

Yea because anytime someone starts p2p on a course it should look top notch the very next day... gimme a break.

When you have been charging the top rate in the market for 6 months, yes it should be looking good.

I'm not asking for everything to be done right now, but there are things that need to be done that haven't been yet, the steps at a couple spots are dangerously unsafe.

Like I said I'll still go there a few times a year, I like the course, but for a player who hadn't been there before it was a let down, they expected better. South St. Paul is setting themselves up here by charging a large (comparitive) fee for a service that they are not adequately providing. The course still looks like a local park course, yet they are charging premium price to play it, this is costing them players, players who would otherwise not have a problem paying the money to play.

I'm not trying to start an arguement here, more get a discussion going as to what needs to be done right now to bring the course to the level of at least a Red Oak (free local course) if not Bryant/BRP (expected level of service if you are paying to play).

 

[CFH-mn]

its looks GREAT not good!
vandals hit again, the signs from 10-17 are all gone except the orange arrows!
i just keep replaceing them, hopefully they will tire and go away like the taggers have...

i painted the graffity on my neibors garage door before, i looked at the large letters C U N T for a week. So i grabbed my paint and covered it, i never asked permission- some ask, some do, some do NOTHING!

thats not mine, i didnt put it there, why should i clean it up- trash- graffity- dog poo. Oh i better get permission first before removing these from the course...
common sense is not a common trait!

 

[ssjfewp]

Your do good actions would put my home course in serious jeopardy of being pulled. A course that many on this site hold in high regard. As someone who has experience working with parks departments, local clubs, local opposition groups etc. you sound incredibly naive to the drama and consequences your good intentions can have.

Many courses exist because of very lightly treading local clubs. That means ensuring that anything that is done goes through the proper channels and that can be cumbersome. The storm that would follow someone spray painting arrows around my park would be a serious headache for the people who are responsible for my course being there. Efforts go in vain when random course users take it upon themselves to "improve things".

For all the others reading this that take it upon themselves to do things like go swimming after their disc in water hazards, realize that if that is not allowed you could be the final straw that got that course pulled. Countless public courses have some group in the ear of the parks department trying to get rid of it and they look for people like you doing things without permission. For the love of God people, get permission.

 

[CwAlbino]

When you have been charging the top rate in the market for 6 months, yes it should be looking good.

I'm not asking for everything to be done right now, but there are things that need to be done that haven't been yet, the steps at a couple spots are dangerously unsafe.

Like I said I'll still go there a few times a year, I like the course, but for a player who hadn't been there before it was a let down, they expected better. South St. Paul is setting themselves up here by charging a large (comparitive) fee for a service that they are not adequately providing. The course still looks like a local park course, yet they are charging premium price to play it, this is costing them players, players who would otherwise not have a problem paying the money to play.

I'm not trying to start an arguement here, more get a discussion going as to what needs to be done right now to bring the course to the level of at least a Red Oak (free local course) if not Bryant/BRP (expected level of service if you are paying to play).

That's because Steve and the people involved with the leagues there willingly put their time and effort into Red Oak. Have you been to The Valley? It looks TONS better, and the $30 yearly bagtag gets you into both courses all year 'round. The Valley is consuming all the time and money at the moment, after that it will be Kaposia. This was said in multiple threads in the past and shouldn't have to be stated again... There is no enforcement at The Valley atm but essentially when you buy a wristband at Kaposia for $5 you are paying to play both courses. If you go up multiple times to either of those courses just pay $30 and get a yearly tag.

 

[deadbody]

That's because Steve and the people involved with the leagues there willingly put their time and effort into Red Oak. Have you been to The Valley? It looks TONS better, and the $30 yearly bagtag gets you into both courses all year 'round. The Valley is consuming all the time and money at the moment, after that it will be Kaposia. This was said in multiple threads in the past and shouldn't have to be stated again... There is no enforcement at The Valley atm but essentially when you buy a wristband at Kaposia for $5 you are paying to play both courses. If you go up multiple times to either of those courses just pay $30 and get a yearly tag.

Either I am not being clear enough, or you are deliberatly ignoring my point. I understand that the $5 or the yearly tag gets you into both courses, I understand that the Valley has had a major overhaul (and I'll have to go play it sometime since I hated the old layout and refused to play there again). That is a seperate issue.

Kaposia is charging a premium price for a currently inferior product. This is driving off the semi-rec players who take care of the course and aren't douchebags, but don't obsessively follow the sport on various webpages to know where the money is going. They see the $5 and mentally compare Kaposia to Blue Ribbon or Byrant or Hyland or Elm Creek. Right now in terms of amenities and appearance it doesn't measure up, it isn't close. After 6 months of pay to play it should be closer.

Right now Acorn is as well maintained as Kaposia, it is a free course. South St. Paul needs to do a better job of making sure some of the money is going back into Kaposia right now to keep the non-hardcore players interested. I don't think everything needs to be fixed all at once, but it does need to show effort, right now all I have seen is one new bridge and the start of some steps to replace the billy goat trail. This is not currently sufficent to maintain a premium price for a course. It will cost Kaposia players in the long run, because the people who buy a pass and play all the time because they are close will continue to do so. The people like me who live 30 minutes away and pass multiple courses to get to Kaposia will start to drift other places instead if the money is not going back into the course. This will cause Kaposia to earn less income for the city, causing them to spend less on the course, vicious circle here.

Kaposia needs to show drastic improvement next year to justify the money taken in, if it doesn't I and many others will likely speak with our wallets and go elsewhere.

 

[CwAlbino]

Either I am not being clear enough, or you are deliberatly ignoring my point. I understand that the $5 or the yearly tag gets you into both courses, I understand that the Valley has had a major overhaul (and I'll have to go play it sometime since I hated the old layout and refused to play there again). That is a seperate issue.

Kaposia is charging a premium price for a currently inferior product. This is driving off the semi-rec players who take care of the course and aren't douchebags, but don't obsessively follow the sport on various webpages to know where the money is going. They see the $5 and mentally compare Kaposia to Blue Ribbon or Byrant or Hyland or Elm Creek. Right now in terms of amenities and appearance it doesn't measure up, it isn't close. After 6 months of pay to play it should be closer.

Right now Acorn is as well maintained as Kaposia, it is a free course. South St. Paul needs to do a better job of making sure some of the money is going back into Kaposia right now to keep the non-hardcore players interested. I don't think everything needs to be fixed all at once, but it does need to show effort, right now all I have seen is one new bridge and the start of some steps to replace the billy goat trail. This is not currently sufficent to maintain a premium price for a course. It will cost Kaposia players in the long run, because the people who buy a pass and play all the time because they are close will continue to do so. The people like me who live 30 minutes away and pass multiple courses to get to Kaposia will start to drift other places instead if the money is not going back into the course. This will cause Kaposia to earn less income for the city, causing them to spend less on the course, vicious circle here.

Kaposia needs to show drastic improvement next year to justify the money taken in, if it doesn't I and many others will likely speak with our wallets and go elsewhere.

Where are they going to get the money to upgrade Kaposia? Do you want them to revamp the course THEN start a p2p? Where is the money coming from to feed your supposed improvements? The best thing is to focus all the funds on one course, then the other. Why? It saves money. Would it be smart to split the concrete and labour up, hauling double the materials to each site in order to build at two courses at the same time? That is double the cost in materials, and likely less productivity so more money for labor.

I hated Valley after my first time playing it, but since the revamp I've been there twice, acorn once, and kaposia twice. The Valley I actually somewhat enjoy now (something about the layout still just doesn't sit with me), it's clean and the teepads aren't absolute **** anymore. The South Valley holes are really cool and provide some more challenge to the course than the holes they pulled to add those. IMO it's actually on par with the maintenance of Red Oak or better (I dislike the new teepads at Red Oak, the shape and size of some are retarded. The pourer's fault not Steve's).

I'm guessing the way they are doing things is by planning everything and pooling money. It wouldn't be smart to take in a certain amount of money then go put in a teepad and drop the pool back to 0. I agree with you that if next year there are no improvements, then something should be done. But you and others are complaining now. Improvements take time and also initiative by those that want to see the improvements done.

A sign might be put up for the rec players that are ignorant to the situation, something like:

"Pay to Play fees are going to improvements to The Valley in Inver Grove Heights and later to Kaposia. $5 for a day pass, $30 for a year pass to both courses. The Valley's pass will be enforced once a pro-shop is added there."

If there is already a sign like that then I'm not sure what you are complaining about.

 

[deadbody]

There is not a sign like the one you ask for that I have seen.

The labor bill is moot because it is being undertaken by two cities. It could be done concurrently with no large increase in labor or materials (since they are two sites and would require two trips and two crews anyways).

I do think South St. Paul should have put some money into the course pre-emptively to at least partially justify the cost they are passing on. Failing that they needed to start doing work when the money started coming in. Keep in mind it has been 6 months since it went to pay to play, and the net addition is a couple tee-pads, a small bridge, and some half finished steps. And much of this work has also used volunteer labor (the tee pads for sure have)

It may have been mowed a bit more often, but most of that cost the city would have had to undertake anyways, the cost of an extra mow a week is relatively minimal.

If the city wants people to pay to use a service they need to invest something in it to start to make it worthwhile for people to spend their money. Would you pay to swim at a pool with no water so that the city could later afford to fill it with water?

 

[CwAlbino]

There is not a sign like the one you ask for that I have seen.

The labor bill is moot because it is being undertaken by two cities. It could be done concurrently with no large increase in labor or materials (since they are two sites and would require two trips and two crews anyways).

I do think South St. Paul should have put some money into the course pre-emptively to at least partially justify the cost they are passing on. Failing that they needed to start doing work when the money started coming in. Keep in mind it has been 6 months since it went to pay to play, and the net addition is a couple tee-pads, a small bridge, and some half finished steps. And much of this work has also used volunteer labor (the tee pads for sure have)

It may have been mowed a bit more often, but most of that cost the city would have had to undertake anyways, the cost of an extra mow a week is relatively minimal.

If the city wants people to pay to use a service they need to invest something in it to start to make it worthwhile for people to spend their money. Would you pay to swim at a pool with no water so that the city could later afford to fill it with water?

Your comparison should be more along the lines of

Would you pay to get into a swimming pool and then later it gets a slide and fresh paint after enough money is earned? Yes, it's still a pool where my money is going to improvements. Kaposia has the bare necessities, and IS better than the first time I played that course just over a year ago. Kaposia was actually my first review, and my only thumbs downs because I said it was in such poor condition. It's better, not by much, but it's better than my first time playing it. You really need to go play Valley before we continue.

edit: Something you could do is ask about a sign being put up to inform others of what we know.

 

[deadbody]

Your comparison should be more along the lines of

Would you pay to get into a swimming pool and then later it gets a slide and fresh paint after enough money is earned? Yes, it's still a pool where my money is going to improvements. Kaposia has the bare necessities, and IS better than the first time I played that course just over a year ago. Kaposia was actually my first review, and my only thumbs downs because I said it was in such poor condition. It's better, not by much, but it's better than my first time playing it. You really need to go play Valley before we continue.

edit: Something you could do is ask about a sign being put up to inform others of what we know.

Like I said, the state of the Valley is immaterial to the discussion, the only people who are paying to play the Valley are the ones who buy an annual pass, and are well aware of where the money is going. Some of the people who go to Kaposia and pay the daily fee are not, and they are underwhelmed by the course, and in the case of a friend of mine, unwilling to return.

Your pool anology is close, but it would be closer this way. South St. Paul currently has a small wading pool, like all other small wading pools in the neighboring cities it is free. Would you start paying $5 to go to that same small wading pool with the promise that once enough people went and paid it would be converted to a nice large pool with a waterslide and bikini girls all over?

Kaposia right now needs some work to be brought to a minimum standard or a pay to play course, what has been done at the Valley is immaterial to this point.

This is also part of the reason I haven't review Kaposia yet, because I think it could be a great course with some money invested into it, and I'd hate to rate it low now because it is not up to even a minimal standard of a pay to play course.

 

[CwAlbino]

Like I said, the state of the Valley is immaterial to the discussion, the only people who are paying to play the Valley are the ones who buy an annual pass, and are well aware of where the money is going. Some of the people who go to Kaposia and pay the daily fee are not, and they are underwhelmed by the course, and in the case of a friend of mine, unwilling to return.

Your pool anology is close, but it would be closer this way. South St. Paul currently has a small wading pool, like all other small wading pools in the neighboring cities it is free. Would you start paying $5 to go to that same small wading pool with the promise that once enough people went and paid it would be converted to a nice large pool with a waterslide and bikini girls all over?

Kaposia right now needs some work to be brought to a minimum standard or a pay to play course, what has been done at the Valley is immaterial to this point.

This is also part of the reason I haven't review Kaposia yet, because I think it could be a great course with some money invested into it, and I'd hate to rate it low now because it is not up to even a minimal standard of a pay to play course.

Fees from Kaposia -> Improvements to Valley -> Then Improvements to Kaposia
Day Passes -> Kaposia -> Valley

How does that not include The Valley? I think your problem and many others' is that you don't like the Valley. You pay to play Kaposia only, is Kaposia worth it? Not at the moment. I could throw in another analogy but we don't even agree on our analogies. Basically, if you only like Kaposia atm, is it worth only playing Kaposia with a daily pass? No. Do the people that didn't like The Valley before just continue to not play it just because they didn't like it the first time? No.

I personally would have chosen to work on Kaposia first, but it's probably due to Chuck Kennedy that The Valley was updated first. Maybe he can come in here and chime in on why the Valley was done first.

 

[deadbody]

My feelings on the Valley are not at all germaine to the discussion.

You make the same point I am making "You pay to play Kaposia only, is Kaposia worth it? Not at the moment." The only place daily passes are sold is Kaposia, a percentage of people who buy the daily pass are only going to play Kaposia (because it is a longer harder course and we are talking about rec type players), so Kaposia needs to be brought up to the pay to play standard ASAP. I understand that the Valley has been significantly upgraded, but if I am not paying to play the Valley it means little to me. I am at Kaposia and I am paying to play that course. This is the mindset many people (not myself but I've been arguing from the standpoint of uninformed rec players the whole time here) have.

From what I have heard the Valley is up near Pay to Play standards, that is good, except that it isn't really a pay to play course, it is a course that you can get an annual pass to, but can play daily for free with no problems because they don't enforce the pay to play, so if you choose to get an annual pass you are donating money to the cause, Kaposia is different, you MUST buy a pass to play there, you cannot choose to donate money to improve the course, and not pay if you don't want to. This course needs to be brought up to speed now.

 

[Cgkdisc]

The false assumption here is that South St Paul and Inver Grove are pooling money and effort. They are not. What you're seeing matches the long running pattern from the beginning. IGH has had the park money and support since 1989. The city has done and expects to do much of the work with park staff. SSP never had the money and park staffing so most of the work over the years has been by fundraising and volunteers other than mowing.

They appear to be working together because the passes work both places. However, the money from annual pass sales goes to the city that sells it and IGH gets no money from the $5 daily sales at Kaposia. We had convinced them in discussions in previous years about pay-for-play that they needed to jointly do it so the remaining free course wouldn't get overrun if only one did it.

IGH had the money to do the renovations and were inspired to do so by visiting Bryant Lake and seeing what they had done. They expect to get repaid over the years for their upgrades via pay-for-play. But ironically, the city council wouldn't allow the Park Dept to budget for someone to take money for daily passes, at least this year. I expect it next year.

SSP had no money to do renovations and I believe has a much smaller Park Dept than IGH to start with. They are hoping to generate the money for renovations from pay-to-play.

 

[jasonc]

I do think South St. Paul should have put some money into the course pre-emptively to at least partially justify the cost they are passing on. Failing that they needed to start doing work when the money started coming in. Keep in mind it has been 6 months since it went to pay to play, and the net addition is a couple tee-pads, a small bridge, and some half finished steps. And much of this work has also used volunteer labor (the tee pads for sure have)

Hello?!?! Is there anybody in there???

Maybe you should change your name to deadbrain instead of deadbody. If they had enough money, there would be no need for a P2P policy. Their money comes from your tax dollars. If they can not find enough money to keep the park open, it will be closed and the baskets will be pulled.

Since you have all of the answers, maybe you should take control of the Park District Offices. Show them how to run a government office the deadbody way. :thmbup: