petecarp
Par Member
that my friend, johnt1969, is the high road or in this case the high ground
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- Thread starter ShannonHG
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ShannonHG
Newbie
Taking this to PM after this...
John I think I was very clear that I want your original assessment of my course taken down. You were "sarcastic", you were misinformed, you have never met me for long enough to actually get to know me and be properly introduced to the course. If you had been, you would never have come away from here with the same attitude towards the course and the important details (like the maps that I have always had available for the specific reason that there are no tee signs, other than the painted markers on the tees themselves, which I might add all point in the general direction of the pin, and have the distance and hole number right there for you to see.)
It has been almost a whole year now since you have even been here...yet you wrote a "review" just last month. No wonder your memory wasn't so hot and you didn't even remember all the baskets. Things change too on private courses. They don't need to be labled by a timestamp, then judged by people who have never even seen them, on an internet website. I take some of the things you said very seriously. Obviously you did not. You even contradicted yourself in this last post saying .....
"Your land is beautiful and very well cared for. I can tell that you have put your heart and a lot of sweat in to the course and your land."
That's a lot different than.....
"They're all short. I personally can't stand home made baskets and every basket here is home made. Most are different and some are silly. Because of the lack of land there's some holes up around the houses. They're not pretty holes and i'm not a fan of that. I think golf courses should be beautiful places."
Can't you people see that I'm not here to complain about a bad review? I'm here to complain about an untrue, dishonest review. I'm complaining only because I did a search for my own course on this website and this is the ONLY review that is there by my course's name. True...it's a young site, and true...you are a newer member like myself, but this is not the mind of thing I want to see others read about my course unless you have facts to back every bit of it up. Maybe you should not only refrain from reviewing private courses that you don't even like anything about, but you should at least consider meeting and getting to know the owners, and playing them more than just once at a busy tournament with over 80 players in the field of 18. Then when you do a review, you might consider doing it before 11 months has gone by. Courses evolve. Most public courses don't change hardly at all, for decades, unless a natural disaster occurs like the one that changed Cedar Hills so drastically. Private courses change a whole lot faster than that and this should be taken into account when posting things about them so judgemental.
John I think I was very clear that I want your original assessment of my course taken down. You were "sarcastic", you were misinformed, you have never met me for long enough to actually get to know me and be properly introduced to the course. If you had been, you would never have come away from here with the same attitude towards the course and the important details (like the maps that I have always had available for the specific reason that there are no tee signs, other than the painted markers on the tees themselves, which I might add all point in the general direction of the pin, and have the distance and hole number right there for you to see.)
It has been almost a whole year now since you have even been here...yet you wrote a "review" just last month. No wonder your memory wasn't so hot and you didn't even remember all the baskets. Things change too on private courses. They don't need to be labled by a timestamp, then judged by people who have never even seen them, on an internet website. I take some of the things you said very seriously. Obviously you did not. You even contradicted yourself in this last post saying .....
"Your land is beautiful and very well cared for. I can tell that you have put your heart and a lot of sweat in to the course and your land."
That's a lot different than.....
"They're all short. I personally can't stand home made baskets and every basket here is home made. Most are different and some are silly. Because of the lack of land there's some holes up around the houses. They're not pretty holes and i'm not a fan of that. I think golf courses should be beautiful places."
Can't you people see that I'm not here to complain about a bad review? I'm here to complain about an untrue, dishonest review. I'm complaining only because I did a search for my own course on this website and this is the ONLY review that is there by my course's name. True...it's a young site, and true...you are a newer member like myself, but this is not the mind of thing I want to see others read about my course unless you have facts to back every bit of it up. Maybe you should not only refrain from reviewing private courses that you don't even like anything about, but you should at least consider meeting and getting to know the owners, and playing them more than just once at a busy tournament with over 80 players in the field of 18. Then when you do a review, you might consider doing it before 11 months has gone by. Courses evolve. Most public courses don't change hardly at all, for decades, unless a natural disaster occurs like the one that changed Cedar Hills so drastically. Private courses change a whole lot faster than that and this should be taken into account when posting things about them so judgemental.
Shannon,
I'll email Tim and have him remove the review of your course. I still think that you should post a review of your course because you have more intimate knowledge of it.
Just to clarify. I never said your land wasn't beautiful. I mentioned that I didn't like the holes up near the houses and didn't consider them beautiful.
I know you don't like my style of reviewing or the criteria that use to review a course but I'm not going to stop reviewing other courses because of it. It's not practical for me to try to find the designer of every course and ask that person why there are no concrete tee pads or why they havent replaced vandalized tee signs. I know that some parks don't let you put in tee pads and I also know that at places like Cedar Hills, if you replace the tee signs they will just get destroyed again. It's a shame we have to deal with those things but they are "cons" and that's the kind of thing to put in the cons section. It's also a shame that Disc Golf struggles much to get recognition because of the pot smoking element that is always lighting up at some of our most prestigious events. But it is what it is and the cons deserve to be mentioned just as much as the pro's do.
This site is about reviewing golf courses. I will obviously update my reviews if I play a course and it has changed. Even if I don't, the reviews that come after mine will hold more weight because they are more recent and accurate description of the current conditions. If your course has significantly changed in the 9 months since I have played it then I apologize for my entire review because it's not accurate but I don't think that it has. Judging by the pictures and maps on the score cards that you posted my concers of crossing/shared fairways are valid on your course because you have them. They're obviously not a problem if there are just a couple people playing but with 80-100 people on the course at once they are valid. I'm glad no-one has gotten hurt there and I hope it stays that way. But that doesn't make the crossing fairways safe. It just takes one person to walk out at the wrong time or one guy to yank a drive and then those crossing/shared fairways won't look like such a good idea any more.
I'll email Tim and let him know I would like the review removed for now.
For anyone else interested in this course. I suggest you don't let our bickering stop you from playing Higher Ground. Shannon was cordial when I met him and even though we are obviously not in agreement about this site and the reviews it shouldn't stop you from trying out his place. In my opinionm the disc golf "purist" will enjoy the course he has put together. If you're more like me and feel that courses should be more standardized then you might not like it. But in either case, if you're in the area then you should judge it for yourself.
John
I'll email Tim and have him remove the review of your course. I still think that you should post a review of your course because you have more intimate knowledge of it.
Just to clarify. I never said your land wasn't beautiful. I mentioned that I didn't like the holes up near the houses and didn't consider them beautiful.
I know you don't like my style of reviewing or the criteria that use to review a course but I'm not going to stop reviewing other courses because of it. It's not practical for me to try to find the designer of every course and ask that person why there are no concrete tee pads or why they havent replaced vandalized tee signs. I know that some parks don't let you put in tee pads and I also know that at places like Cedar Hills, if you replace the tee signs they will just get destroyed again. It's a shame we have to deal with those things but they are "cons" and that's the kind of thing to put in the cons section. It's also a shame that Disc Golf struggles much to get recognition because of the pot smoking element that is always lighting up at some of our most prestigious events. But it is what it is and the cons deserve to be mentioned just as much as the pro's do.
This site is about reviewing golf courses. I will obviously update my reviews if I play a course and it has changed. Even if I don't, the reviews that come after mine will hold more weight because they are more recent and accurate description of the current conditions. If your course has significantly changed in the 9 months since I have played it then I apologize for my entire review because it's not accurate but I don't think that it has. Judging by the pictures and maps on the score cards that you posted my concers of crossing/shared fairways are valid on your course because you have them. They're obviously not a problem if there are just a couple people playing but with 80-100 people on the course at once they are valid. I'm glad no-one has gotten hurt there and I hope it stays that way. But that doesn't make the crossing fairways safe. It just takes one person to walk out at the wrong time or one guy to yank a drive and then those crossing/shared fairways won't look like such a good idea any more.
I'll email Tim and let him know I would like the review removed for now.
For anyone else interested in this course. I suggest you don't let our bickering stop you from playing Higher Ground. Shannon was cordial when I met him and even though we are obviously not in agreement about this site and the reviews it shouldn't stop you from trying out his place. In my opinionm the disc golf "purist" will enjoy the course he has put together. If you're more like me and feel that courses should be more standardized then you might not like it. But in either case, if you're in the area then you should judge it for yourself.
John
oakley doakley
Newbie
Whats so great about this site is the members make it great. Tim did I great job setting this all up but it's all the members and all there different views that make it great. We all get to express are OPINION good or bad, informed or not. Player or designers of the courses. The review should stay if that's how you honestly feel. Screw what the Shannon thinks. It's not his review. He can say it wasn't helpful to him and submit his own review. Don't cave to his pissing and moaning. He just needs a beer, or maybe some sedatives. I have seen other reviews where one contradicted the other one. He can write a review and say yours is incorrect then when others go to the course they can decide which review was helpful. We all can see those ghetto disc catchers he has. That's a strike right there in my book. After all his ranting and raving I'll never go that POS. Just my OPINION!
I'll give some thought as to what to do.. right now I'm strongly considering removing the course from DGCR entirely as there is no guarantee an outburst like this won't happen again should a less than positive review be posted by someone else. Quite frankly, I feel ShannonHG's attacks against John and the other comments he has posted have done far more damage than John's review ever could have. You never get a second chance to make a first impression and I think this entire thread has left a bad taste in everyone's mouth.
The whole idea behind DGCR is to share opinions, good or bad about courses. Some people won't like a course, some will.. same thing with movies, video games and any other creative endeavor. I can't remember the last time an artist/director/actor publicly attacked someone that gave their work a bad review.
I won't stand for reviewers being insulted and bullied in an attempt to have them change their reviews to fit into how someone else feels the course should be rated. I would rather remove or not allow reviews on a course if I and other DGCR members have to deal with this kind of ridiculous drama.
The whole idea behind DGCR is to share opinions, good or bad about courses. Some people won't like a course, some will.. same thing with movies, video games and any other creative endeavor. I can't remember the last time an artist/director/actor publicly attacked someone that gave their work a bad review.
I won't stand for reviewers being insulted and bullied in an attempt to have them change their reviews to fit into how someone else feels the course should be rated. I would rather remove or not allow reviews on a course if I and other DGCR members have to deal with this kind of ridiculous drama.
basmith42
Bogey Member
my 2c worth (I may owe y'all a nickel later)
Hey shannon..
An old college english prof of mine used to start each class with a drawing on the black board. It was a stick figure on the left and a manuscript on the right. Between the two was a "not equal" sign. The message he was conveying was "You ar enot your manuscript".
I've redrawn this hundreds of times since college. There's even a variant of it on one of my company's programer's bulletin board to remind him that he is not his code.
You are not your course. You can love your course. You can want the best for your course. You, however, are not your course.
That being said....
If I had the time and your course was close to a job site I was at.. I'd check it out regardless of the review. The reviews do sway my choices for courses when I'm traveling. But, pictures and maps make my mind up much more quickly than a bad review.
Of the courses I've reviewed, I've gicen as many bad reviews as good. I've had people mark my reviews as helpful as often as not. So, my views aren't everyone's view.
But, I'm just a rec player.
If you want to get some more reviews, then snap some pictures and share your course. Maybe invite some folk out.. host a bbq and dg day. I don't know. Fight a bad review with an honest good review. I bet its beautiful course that rec players (such as myself) would enjoy.
Isn't that what matters?
Hey shannon..
An old college english prof of mine used to start each class with a drawing on the black board. It was a stick figure on the left and a manuscript on the right. Between the two was a "not equal" sign. The message he was conveying was "You ar enot your manuscript".
I've redrawn this hundreds of times since college. There's even a variant of it on one of my company's programer's bulletin board to remind him that he is not his code.
You are not your course. You can love your course. You can want the best for your course. You, however, are not your course.
That being said....
If I had the time and your course was close to a job site I was at.. I'd check it out regardless of the review. The reviews do sway my choices for courses when I'm traveling. But, pictures and maps make my mind up much more quickly than a bad review.
Of the courses I've reviewed, I've gicen as many bad reviews as good. I've had people mark my reviews as helpful as often as not. So, my views aren't everyone's view.
But, I'm just a rec player.
If you want to get some more reviews, then snap some pictures and share your course. Maybe invite some folk out.. host a bbq and dg day. I don't know. Fight a bad review with an honest good review. I bet its beautiful course that rec players (such as myself) would enjoy.
Isn't that what matters?
BAM! There it is right there! If I were Shannon, I'd edit my review only to state that the course designer will attack you if you express a negative opinion about his course. (With a link to this thread)! I have no doubt that Higher Ground is a fun place, and that it does have its flaws, but after this, I am happy to forgo bagging this course.
Just more evidence of Tim abilities as a super human! Viva DGCR!
Hi Tim (and others),
I know this is your site and you can do anything you want. And also know this thread got out of hand quickly but I would like to be on the books to say that you shouldn't pull his course from the site. That's not what the site is about and I'm sure you didn't envision having to do something like that when you decided to create it. I found and started using dgcoursereview as a replacement for the PDGA course guide before I ever got an account and I definitely think that all the courses should be here.
Regarding my review of Shannon's course. He's not the only person I've made very mad with a review in the short time that I've been reviewing courses. I've made another designer mad and we've been discussing it via PM. Our conversation has not been quite as heated as this one but it has ended up the same way. I've made another enemy. The key difference between the two is that Shannon's course is private. I wouldn't have offered to remove the review for a course on public land because of my strong feelings regarding safety.
Shannon is not a bad guy. I have met him. He was nice and he has a good reputation around this area. He is, obviously, very passionate about his course and disc golf. We need that passion for the sport. I do feel like he attacked me in the forum but he felt the same way about my review even if it wasn't my intent.
I think that as the site is used more and as people start to review his course it will receive good and bad reviews. I can see his point that painting a clean slate with a bad review is setting the course up for failure here because people will go in with a pre-conceived notion about it. I also understand that that's what the site is all about but his course is a lot different than most places we play. In my opinion he should be the first to review it because of that. When I hear multiple tee pads on a hole I think about short, medium and long tees. His course is not like that. It's more like safari golf. I love playing safari golf but I hate crossing/shared fairways more. Especially when there are a lot of people on the course. In any case... it will draw some semi bad ratings from people like me but the old school disc golf purist will probably really like it.
The main point of this message is that I would like you to keep the course on the site, remove my review for the time being and encourage Shannon to write a review. I'll go back and review the course again at a later date after some others have posted their thoughts. Hopefully the hard feelings between Shannon and I will pass and we can laugh about this if we run in to each other on a course somewhere.
If this whole thing with Shannon and the other course designer has taught me anything it's to try to keep my personality out of the review and to be more specific. Course designers don't like humor or sarcasm when you describe something that you think is a negative about their course. If you feel there is a tree in your follow through on a tee pad or something like that then you should be able to remember exactly what hole because someone is going to question it.
j
I know this is your site and you can do anything you want. And also know this thread got out of hand quickly but I would like to be on the books to say that you shouldn't pull his course from the site. That's not what the site is about and I'm sure you didn't envision having to do something like that when you decided to create it. I found and started using dgcoursereview as a replacement for the PDGA course guide before I ever got an account and I definitely think that all the courses should be here.
Regarding my review of Shannon's course. He's not the only person I've made very mad with a review in the short time that I've been reviewing courses. I've made another designer mad and we've been discussing it via PM. Our conversation has not been quite as heated as this one but it has ended up the same way. I've made another enemy. The key difference between the two is that Shannon's course is private. I wouldn't have offered to remove the review for a course on public land because of my strong feelings regarding safety.
Shannon is not a bad guy. I have met him. He was nice and he has a good reputation around this area. He is, obviously, very passionate about his course and disc golf. We need that passion for the sport. I do feel like he attacked me in the forum but he felt the same way about my review even if it wasn't my intent.
I think that as the site is used more and as people start to review his course it will receive good and bad reviews. I can see his point that painting a clean slate with a bad review is setting the course up for failure here because people will go in with a pre-conceived notion about it. I also understand that that's what the site is all about but his course is a lot different than most places we play. In my opinion he should be the first to review it because of that. When I hear multiple tee pads on a hole I think about short, medium and long tees. His course is not like that. It's more like safari golf. I love playing safari golf but I hate crossing/shared fairways more. Especially when there are a lot of people on the course. In any case... it will draw some semi bad ratings from people like me but the old school disc golf purist will probably really like it.
The main point of this message is that I would like you to keep the course on the site, remove my review for the time being and encourage Shannon to write a review. I'll go back and review the course again at a later date after some others have posted their thoughts. Hopefully the hard feelings between Shannon and I will pass and we can laugh about this if we run in to each other on a course somewhere.
If this whole thing with Shannon and the other course designer has taught me anything it's to try to keep my personality out of the review and to be more specific. Course designers don't like humor or sarcasm when you describe something that you think is a negative about their course. If you feel there is a tree in your follow through on a tee pad or something like that then you should be able to remember exactly what hole because someone is going to question it.
j
- Joined
- Mar 6, 2008
- Messages
- 4,072
Wow... skip a couple days on the board and look at all the "fun" I missed...
Tim, I don't think you should pull the course from DGCR unless Shannon asks you to do so because he doesn't want his private course in a public directory.
I also don't think the review should be pulled. There will be good reviews and bad reviews, it's not possible to please everyone all the time. Nine people have found useful content in John's review as of this date. As Tim has said repeatedly the course rating will arrive at the correct average over time.
Shannon, do your own review of the course. State up front that you are the designer and have at what you like and don't like about it. Reviews on this site are going to be somewhat biased. There's no way to avoid that with much of the general population. Heck, read another DGCR thread and you'll find that some people consciously ignore the DGCR definitions of what the 0-5 disc rating scale is and apply their own value to what "3 discs" means. With that type of inconsistency you have to hope that with enough inputs the outliers will eventually be diminished.
I'm inclined to agree with a previous post that said this thread has done more damage to your course's reputation than the original review.
Now what I'm curious to see is Olorin's review of Higher Ground.
ERic
Tim, I don't think you should pull the course from DGCR unless Shannon asks you to do so because he doesn't want his private course in a public directory.
I also don't think the review should be pulled. There will be good reviews and bad reviews, it's not possible to please everyone all the time. Nine people have found useful content in John's review as of this date. As Tim has said repeatedly the course rating will arrive at the correct average over time.
Shannon, do your own review of the course. State up front that you are the designer and have at what you like and don't like about it. Reviews on this site are going to be somewhat biased. There's no way to avoid that with much of the general population. Heck, read another DGCR thread and you'll find that some people consciously ignore the DGCR definitions of what the 0-5 disc rating scale is and apply their own value to what "3 discs" means. With that type of inconsistency you have to hope that with enough inputs the outliers will eventually be diminished.
I'm inclined to agree with a previous post that said this thread has done more damage to your course's reputation than the original review.
Now what I'm curious to see is Olorin's review of Higher Ground.
ERic
- Joined
- May 2, 2008
- Messages
- 2,043
All I can say about all this so far is it reminds me of cult like activity. That is when someone is trying to bully someone else into a view or an opinion. If some can not take criticism, without total retaliation, it does nothing but make it worse. Oakley has it right, "Let the people speak." This site was built in a nation of free speech, and it should live on. As far as what to do now...I do have a suggestion for timg to make his life easier.
timg, why don't you leave the facts of the course up and replace this course's review section with a statement. Have the statement say that this course is not available for review per the request of the owner. That statement will be all thhere is on that page. No reviews at all, not even from the owner. This way people can still find the course and decide whether or not they want to visit it on their own.
Now, if the designer doesn't want their course list at all. I would still keep the course on the site with a generic name, like "course name not allowed to be listed." No one can keep you from listing every course in the world, but you can be accepting of leaving the name off for their privacy.
Anyway just some ideas.
I am not fan of bullies of any kind and this thread never did get the apology or acceptance like I hoped it would. I did not see anything wrong with the review as it was in no way any different than any other reviews we have on here. I understand the passion one has for their hard work, but without accepting criticism and moving on, it just gets out of control.
timg, why don't you leave the facts of the course up and replace this course's review section with a statement. Have the statement say that this course is not available for review per the request of the owner. That statement will be all thhere is on that page. No reviews at all, not even from the owner. This way people can still find the course and decide whether or not they want to visit it on their own.
Now, if the designer doesn't want their course list at all. I would still keep the course on the site with a generic name, like "course name not allowed to be listed." No one can keep you from listing every course in the world, but you can be accepting of leaving the name off for their privacy.
Anyway just some ideas.
I am not fan of bullies of any kind and this thread never did get the apology or acceptance like I hoped it would. I did not see anything wrong with the review as it was in no way any different than any other reviews we have on here. I understand the passion one has for their hard work, but without accepting criticism and moving on, it just gets out of control.
Amen. Quite Frankly, I am very disappointed at the way things turned out. I think your idea is a good one, Donovan. I tend to be a bit sarcastic as well, however, I have (sofar) had no problems with angry designers.
One of the biggest things I really enjoy and appreciate about this site (besides Timg's impeccable design and all the work he does to make it the best) is how the members treat each other.
I've read threads on other discussion boards, where some members just get on and act like total jerk-offs, and it is discouraging. I can't help but think, if I am discouraged by this, what would someone new to this sport, or this community think. There is a reason that this is the only DG site I post on. Its because the members are happy to discuss DG and talk with each other, just like the 99% of people I meet out on the courses. Good people who love the sport.
Every time I see something like this thread (on other sites), where someone has a problem with someone else, it is never about disc golf, its about someone having a problem with someone else. If you don't believe me, ask EricJ for the links to the Mozola threads. I'm pretty laid back, but one thing I am passionate about is respecting other people. I am saddened at the way this whole thing has been handled by the (two) parties involved.
When I saw the posted pics of Higher Ground, it looked really cool, and I wanted to play the course. I DID NOT read the actual review of the course, but at this point, I will never go out of my way to play there, not even five minutes. Shannon's comments are infinitely more damaging than any number of reviews ever could be. I have infinite respect for someone who designs or maintains a course, but if someone attacks others that disagree with them, I want no part of that, not even if they are the most knowledgeable/skilled course designer/disc designer/pro player in the world. In any sport.
I would like to thank all the members of this site who enjoy constructive discussions and realize that dissenting opinions are things to be explored, not squashed. You are the ones who make this forum what it is.
Timg, I think disallowing reviews on Higher Ground is a good solution, which will (hopefully) prevent future outbursts.
Shannon, please stop quoting parts of John's original review of your course, or anyone else's subsequent comments, then insulting them. You have beaten that horse to death already. However, I wish you the best on your course. It honestly looks like one of the best home courses I have ever seen, and if I played it, Im sure I would really like it and give it a good review.
To quote Forrest Gump: "And thats all I have to say about that."
One of the biggest things I really enjoy and appreciate about this site (besides Timg's impeccable design and all the work he does to make it the best) is how the members treat each other.
I've read threads on other discussion boards, where some members just get on and act like total jerk-offs, and it is discouraging. I can't help but think, if I am discouraged by this, what would someone new to this sport, or this community think. There is a reason that this is the only DG site I post on. Its because the members are happy to discuss DG and talk with each other, just like the 99% of people I meet out on the courses. Good people who love the sport.
Every time I see something like this thread (on other sites), where someone has a problem with someone else, it is never about disc golf, its about someone having a problem with someone else. If you don't believe me, ask EricJ for the links to the Mozola threads. I'm pretty laid back, but one thing I am passionate about is respecting other people. I am saddened at the way this whole thing has been handled by the (two) parties involved.
When I saw the posted pics of Higher Ground, it looked really cool, and I wanted to play the course. I DID NOT read the actual review of the course, but at this point, I will never go out of my way to play there, not even five minutes. Shannon's comments are infinitely more damaging than any number of reviews ever could be. I have infinite respect for someone who designs or maintains a course, but if someone attacks others that disagree with them, I want no part of that, not even if they are the most knowledgeable/skilled course designer/disc designer/pro player in the world. In any sport.
I would like to thank all the members of this site who enjoy constructive discussions and realize that dissenting opinions are things to be explored, not squashed. You are the ones who make this forum what it is.
Timg, I think disallowing reviews on Higher Ground is a good solution, which will (hopefully) prevent future outbursts.
Shannon, please stop quoting parts of John's original review of your course, or anyone else's subsequent comments, then insulting them. You have beaten that horse to death already. However, I wish you the best on your course. It honestly looks like one of the best home courses I have ever seen, and if I played it, Im sure I would really like it and give it a good review.
To quote Forrest Gump: "And thats all I have to say about that."
Have you seen the movie Deliverance?
Since I have not seen the course or met the people involved, I can't speak to the quality of the course or the fairness of the review. The larger issue for me it the ability for someone to bully their opinions at us and suppress the opinions of others. I would be in favor of:
1. Leaving the course on the site.
2. Leaving the original review on the site and leaving the decision to edit it up to the author.
3. Deleting this thread and all the nonsense that was posted on it.
Really, if we are going to freely post opinions, this sort of thing can't go on.
1. Leaving the course on the site.
2. Leaving the original review on the site and leaving the decision to edit it up to the author.
3. Deleting this thread and all the nonsense that was posted on it.
Really, if we are going to freely post opinions, this sort of thing can't go on.
ShannonHG
Newbie
Just forget it then...
Trying to talk to a bunch of juveniles here, who don't understand the concept that LIES were told about my course in a public review on your website, whether due to forgetfulness, sarcasm, or WTF ever, is totally and completely unacceptable. If the shoe was on the other foot, and Mr Tim here had his own course, and it was slandered on a public forum, I'm sure he would want the untruthful information REMOVED, just like my intent was with this pissed off thread of mine. Honestly I don't give two bleeps what ANY of you think of my course, or me for that matter, unless you have actually met me and played it. This is nothing but an internet site. I have ZERO to prove to any of you. My course has an excellent reputation and a huge following in my area. I get lots of people coming through here weekly that found my course in the PDGA directory. I've never heard anything but good vibes from them either. I'm listed with my town's amenities, and get calls from the town council directing visitors from afar to come here and play. I get calls from local church's, who want to bring their youth groups out here to play and learn about the sport. I have an open door policy to them. The local sports shop that sells discs in town, knows about us and has maps. You know how many of them give a bleep about this little forum and the criticism that abounds here? Bottom line is...99.999 % of the people who have actually seen the course and met the owner, LOVE the place. If you don't believe me, ask John or Lowe (Olorin) If you think I'm worried about anything you people have to say, or worried about things I might say to you in anger, doing damage to my course's or my reputation, you are sadly mistaken. I don't really care what you think. If you all act like this all the time, then whoever posted above was right, the bad review will hopefully keep snobby little golf geeks away from here.
I'll say it again....THE ONLY REASON I STARTED THIS THREAD WAS BECAUSE THERE WERE DIRECT LIES TOLD, IN A VERY MISLEADING POST ABOUT MY COURSE, WHETHER DUE TO "SARCASM", FORGETFULNESS, OR WHATEVER, DOESN'T MATTER. THE ONLY THING THAT MATTERS IS THE REVIEW WAS INACCURATE AND I CAME HERE TO STATE THE FACTS...GOOD OR BAD HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH IT! When a "review" is based on one person's extreme dislike of certain features, and it's tainted with a few untruths (on purpose or not), then it's nothing more than an opinion and the falsities are very misleading to the total picture. I would have done the same thing if he had posted a review saying he enjoyed the hell out of the course and especially liked the island holes (which haven't even been made yet).... or the jet powered golf cart free rentals were superb...If he had said we had two excellent holes that were over 600 feet, I would have come here just the same and made sure everyone knew these things were all false. If he said I had brought one of those baby gators back with me from last time I was down at Hilton Head, and had him trained to retrieve discs from the bottom of the pond, I would have refuted that too. One guy's fantastic or horrible review of my course isn't going to hurt me at all...what it does is mislead you guys. Coming here as a new guy and boldly stating these facts was a mistake on my part. I now see that. I should have known better from experiences with people on my forum. I was upset though, and tried to do something about it ASAP. I had hoped the admin here could read between the lines and see what I was saying... It's obvious to me that you don't care what I say either so let's just leave it at that. I have respect for Johnt1969 for being so understanding and diplomatic in the face of a verbal assault, which I believe was justified in public, just like the review is public, otherwise I would have just called him aside and asked him to straighten it out. The fact is, it was already in public and I wanted to make sure people got to hear my side. At least he understands where I'm coming from and isn't too stuck up and "cliquish" to admit he was a little off base with some things in his review, even went to the trouble to try and correct some of it. Then he was very fair in asking the admin here to pull his review, or write a new one if that's what I wanted done, at least for now til others have had a chance to check it out and write their own reviews. That wasn't him trying to "kiss ass", nor was it a result of being "bullied". That was John doing his best to be honorable and do the right thing for the long run...something you guys off in another state don't care anything about.
Tim I didn't "bully" anyone. I made my case against someone who admittedly went a little overboard with his words about my course, even if that is his writing style and he admits that. I apologize to him for being so hard on him for it here. I also apologize to you for dumping this whole load of bleep in your house. I think you should LISTEN to what he says, and what other members here who actually KNOW ME say, before you and your little cheerleaders crucify me any more. If this is what your site is really about, then I will be glad to let many others know about it.
Mr JOKEly DICKly there, gets away with throwing smartass insults at a new member here, as childish as he sounds, and others here do nothing but egg him on. What a great group of guys! You sound like the ones I would surely go out of my way to have in my group...NOT!
Unless you are afraid that people will come along and say more good things in my defense, or make good comments or reviews on Higher Ground, then maybe you should think before you act. I've had time to cool down about John, and after hearing what he has said, I'm willing to forgive him and move on. The only thing I'm having a problem with now is how the rest of you are jumping at the chance to judge me, after all I did was try and set the record straight about the exaggerated untruths in John's review. Forgive me for trying to correct what was wrong....I'm sure all of you would just sit back and let someone post slanderous remarks about something you believe in, that happens to be your own home. Don't worry about seeing further debates on the open forum, between John and I about whether "slander" is the right word. (We will settle the rest in PMs and you can listen to what he tells you or not). Call it what you want. Things were said that were false. That's the only thing that made me go off. Sadly, most of you will never understand that and see what has really happened here. Too busy playing keyboard commando instead. Internet forums are sometimes like that. They are made up of a small group of regulars, who band together and circle the wagons whenever a new guy comes along with a little too much to say, too fast, and / or too brash. I should know, I'm a moderator on a military assault weapons forum. You want to hear a bunch of guys talk smack and call it freedom of speech? Yeah...trust me I've heard it all. If I've been a little too "colorful" in my posts here, sorry, I'm used to hanging out with a bunch of grown men, Soldiers, Marines, Cops, Agents, Special Forces, we tend to be very outspoken about things we believe in. I allow a lot of things on my forum, and I don't censor either, but one thing I don't allow is people ganging up on someone, especially a new member we don't really know yet, and talking S*!T to them just to hear themselves blab, and have their buddies cheer them on. Grow up people!
Maybe you should have tried to see past my rudeness, and actually listen to what I was trying to say....Like John did.
Trying to talk to a bunch of juveniles here, who don't understand the concept that LIES were told about my course in a public review on your website, whether due to forgetfulness, sarcasm, or WTF ever, is totally and completely unacceptable. If the shoe was on the other foot, and Mr Tim here had his own course, and it was slandered on a public forum, I'm sure he would want the untruthful information REMOVED, just like my intent was with this pissed off thread of mine. Honestly I don't give two bleeps what ANY of you think of my course, or me for that matter, unless you have actually met me and played it. This is nothing but an internet site. I have ZERO to prove to any of you. My course has an excellent reputation and a huge following in my area. I get lots of people coming through here weekly that found my course in the PDGA directory. I've never heard anything but good vibes from them either. I'm listed with my town's amenities, and get calls from the town council directing visitors from afar to come here and play. I get calls from local church's, who want to bring their youth groups out here to play and learn about the sport. I have an open door policy to them. The local sports shop that sells discs in town, knows about us and has maps. You know how many of them give a bleep about this little forum and the criticism that abounds here? Bottom line is...99.999 % of the people who have actually seen the course and met the owner, LOVE the place. If you don't believe me, ask John or Lowe (Olorin) If you think I'm worried about anything you people have to say, or worried about things I might say to you in anger, doing damage to my course's or my reputation, you are sadly mistaken. I don't really care what you think. If you all act like this all the time, then whoever posted above was right, the bad review will hopefully keep snobby little golf geeks away from here.
I'll say it again....THE ONLY REASON I STARTED THIS THREAD WAS BECAUSE THERE WERE DIRECT LIES TOLD, IN A VERY MISLEADING POST ABOUT MY COURSE, WHETHER DUE TO "SARCASM", FORGETFULNESS, OR WHATEVER, DOESN'T MATTER. THE ONLY THING THAT MATTERS IS THE REVIEW WAS INACCURATE AND I CAME HERE TO STATE THE FACTS...GOOD OR BAD HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH IT! When a "review" is based on one person's extreme dislike of certain features, and it's tainted with a few untruths (on purpose or not), then it's nothing more than an opinion and the falsities are very misleading to the total picture. I would have done the same thing if he had posted a review saying he enjoyed the hell out of the course and especially liked the island holes (which haven't even been made yet).... or the jet powered golf cart free rentals were superb...If he had said we had two excellent holes that were over 600 feet, I would have come here just the same and made sure everyone knew these things were all false. If he said I had brought one of those baby gators back with me from last time I was down at Hilton Head, and had him trained to retrieve discs from the bottom of the pond, I would have refuted that too. One guy's fantastic or horrible review of my course isn't going to hurt me at all...what it does is mislead you guys. Coming here as a new guy and boldly stating these facts was a mistake on my part. I now see that. I should have known better from experiences with people on my forum. I was upset though, and tried to do something about it ASAP. I had hoped the admin here could read between the lines and see what I was saying... It's obvious to me that you don't care what I say either so let's just leave it at that. I have respect for Johnt1969 for being so understanding and diplomatic in the face of a verbal assault, which I believe was justified in public, just like the review is public, otherwise I would have just called him aside and asked him to straighten it out. The fact is, it was already in public and I wanted to make sure people got to hear my side. At least he understands where I'm coming from and isn't too stuck up and "cliquish" to admit he was a little off base with some things in his review, even went to the trouble to try and correct some of it. Then he was very fair in asking the admin here to pull his review, or write a new one if that's what I wanted done, at least for now til others have had a chance to check it out and write their own reviews. That wasn't him trying to "kiss ass", nor was it a result of being "bullied". That was John doing his best to be honorable and do the right thing for the long run...something you guys off in another state don't care anything about.
Tim I didn't "bully" anyone. I made my case against someone who admittedly went a little overboard with his words about my course, even if that is his writing style and he admits that. I apologize to him for being so hard on him for it here. I also apologize to you for dumping this whole load of bleep in your house. I think you should LISTEN to what he says, and what other members here who actually KNOW ME say, before you and your little cheerleaders crucify me any more. If this is what your site is really about, then I will be glad to let many others know about it.
Mr JOKEly DICKly there, gets away with throwing smartass insults at a new member here, as childish as he sounds, and others here do nothing but egg him on. What a great group of guys! You sound like the ones I would surely go out of my way to have in my group...NOT!
Unless you are afraid that people will come along and say more good things in my defense, or make good comments or reviews on Higher Ground, then maybe you should think before you act. I've had time to cool down about John, and after hearing what he has said, I'm willing to forgive him and move on. The only thing I'm having a problem with now is how the rest of you are jumping at the chance to judge me, after all I did was try and set the record straight about the exaggerated untruths in John's review. Forgive me for trying to correct what was wrong....I'm sure all of you would just sit back and let someone post slanderous remarks about something you believe in, that happens to be your own home. Don't worry about seeing further debates on the open forum, between John and I about whether "slander" is the right word. (We will settle the rest in PMs and you can listen to what he tells you or not). Call it what you want. Things were said that were false. That's the only thing that made me go off. Sadly, most of you will never understand that and see what has really happened here. Too busy playing keyboard commando instead. Internet forums are sometimes like that. They are made up of a small group of regulars, who band together and circle the wagons whenever a new guy comes along with a little too much to say, too fast, and / or too brash. I should know, I'm a moderator on a military assault weapons forum. You want to hear a bunch of guys talk smack and call it freedom of speech? Yeah...trust me I've heard it all. If I've been a little too "colorful" in my posts here, sorry, I'm used to hanging out with a bunch of grown men, Soldiers, Marines, Cops, Agents, Special Forces, we tend to be very outspoken about things we believe in. I allow a lot of things on my forum, and I don't censor either, but one thing I don't allow is people ganging up on someone, especially a new member we don't really know yet, and talking S*!T to them just to hear themselves blab, and have their buddies cheer them on. Grow up people!
Maybe you should have tried to see past my rudeness, and actually listen to what I was trying to say....Like John did.
ShannonHG
Newbie
(cont.)
And to the guy who commented that private courses shouldn't be listed in a public directory, and permission to play shouldn't be required, It's obvious you don't even know anyone who owns and operates a course in their own back yard. Would you like to look out your bedroom, or kitchen window and see strangers walking around in your yard unannounced? How about your wife or girlfriend? Ya think she might be concerned for the safety of her young son, or be a little taken by surprise if she was hanging out laundry and a group of guys she'd never seen, just wandered around the corner? Or even worse, bombed in on her with drives while she's hanging up clothes?
You think maybe you might be a little irked, if you are out there on the tractor and have to keep stopping to let people play all around you? The grass doesn't cut itself son.
And you were so dramatic with your statements of being afraid you might get shot while playing if you trespassed? Well you don't know just how you managed to hit that one right on the head!
I would NEVER...I REPEAT NEVER aim a gun at an unarmed human being and I do NOT appreciate you suggesting I might....just more of the same juvenile keyboard commando BS!
That said, I live in the county, not in the city. We do fire weapons on the property, and OFTEN. That is one of the main reasons I tell everyone who comes here wanting to fish or play disc golf, that it is IMPERATIVE to call ahead first. How would you like to be out in your back yard, wearing ear protection and firing pistols, rifles, and shotguns... or even just about ready to fire.... and suddenly notice a group of golfers bumbling through the woods without permission? Yes sir, I think calling ahead is A GREAT IDEA.
All courses are not alike and some are VERY different. Private courses are most often people's HOMES. This makes many things you are used to in your city parks VERY different and not applicable to a "course review". Keep that in mind when passing judgement on people y'all don't know. IMO anyone who wants to do a public review of a private course, whether it's listed on a public directory or not, has a responsibility to the owner of that course to ask them if they want it reviewed or not.
If that had been done here, in this case, none of this crap would have ever happened.
There is one member here who I would trust...no wait...there are two members (out of those I know about so far) I would trust to give an unbiased review on Higher Ground.
Both of them have played my course numerous times and are very honest, down to earth, and trustworthy people.
Olorin and Discgnome
If either of these fine gentlemen would like to do so, they are more than welcome. I think it goes without saying that after all this, it would be hard for me to do a review of it on this forum without it being biased....at least not until all these hostilities cease. Like John said and your long time member Olorin can attest, I'm a very nice guy in person. I was crossed here and lost my temper. I'm sorry for that. I didn't come here to find a new place to hang out, I don't have time to run another forum and a disc golf course, and spend any real time here. If things had been different I may have never even registered here. If I'm not banned for my actions in this one thread (I have in fact been very civil in the two other threads I've replied in) then I will promise to refrain from any more outbursts on this forum.
Arguing on the internet is for retards.
And yes I too vote that this whole thread be canned since I have worked my problem with John out and the only thing keeping it alive now is the bickering from the membership who I can't really blame for not liking what they all had to log on and see. I would hope however, that you would at least leave it up
long enough (say 24 hours?) so that everyone who has posted here can read this last post of mine. I'm done with it now.
Sending John and Tim a PM now...
And to the guy who commented that private courses shouldn't be listed in a public directory, and permission to play shouldn't be required, It's obvious you don't even know anyone who owns and operates a course in their own back yard. Would you like to look out your bedroom, or kitchen window and see strangers walking around in your yard unannounced? How about your wife or girlfriend? Ya think she might be concerned for the safety of her young son, or be a little taken by surprise if she was hanging out laundry and a group of guys she'd never seen, just wandered around the corner? Or even worse, bombed in on her with drives while she's hanging up clothes?
You think maybe you might be a little irked, if you are out there on the tractor and have to keep stopping to let people play all around you? The grass doesn't cut itself son.
And you were so dramatic with your statements of being afraid you might get shot while playing if you trespassed? Well you don't know just how you managed to hit that one right on the head!
I would NEVER...I REPEAT NEVER aim a gun at an unarmed human being and I do NOT appreciate you suggesting I might....just more of the same juvenile keyboard commando BS!
That said, I live in the county, not in the city. We do fire weapons on the property, and OFTEN. That is one of the main reasons I tell everyone who comes here wanting to fish or play disc golf, that it is IMPERATIVE to call ahead first. How would you like to be out in your back yard, wearing ear protection and firing pistols, rifles, and shotguns... or even just about ready to fire.... and suddenly notice a group of golfers bumbling through the woods without permission? Yes sir, I think calling ahead is A GREAT IDEA.
All courses are not alike and some are VERY different. Private courses are most often people's HOMES. This makes many things you are used to in your city parks VERY different and not applicable to a "course review". Keep that in mind when passing judgement on people y'all don't know. IMO anyone who wants to do a public review of a private course, whether it's listed on a public directory or not, has a responsibility to the owner of that course to ask them if they want it reviewed or not.
If that had been done here, in this case, none of this crap would have ever happened.
There is one member here who I would trust...no wait...there are two members (out of those I know about so far) I would trust to give an unbiased review on Higher Ground.
Both of them have played my course numerous times and are very honest, down to earth, and trustworthy people.
Olorin and Discgnome
If either of these fine gentlemen would like to do so, they are more than welcome. I think it goes without saying that after all this, it would be hard for me to do a review of it on this forum without it being biased....at least not until all these hostilities cease. Like John said and your long time member Olorin can attest, I'm a very nice guy in person. I was crossed here and lost my temper. I'm sorry for that. I didn't come here to find a new place to hang out, I don't have time to run another forum and a disc golf course, and spend any real time here. If things had been different I may have never even registered here. If I'm not banned for my actions in this one thread (I have in fact been very civil in the two other threads I've replied in) then I will promise to refrain from any more outbursts on this forum.
Arguing on the internet is for retards.
And yes I too vote that this whole thread be canned since I have worked my problem with John out and the only thing keeping it alive now is the bickering from the membership who I can't really blame for not liking what they all had to log on and see. I would hope however, that you would at least leave it up
long enough (say 24 hours?) so that everyone who has posted here can read this last post of mine. I'm done with it now.
Sending John and Tim a PM now...
ShannonHG
Newbie
BINGO!
The review will remain and the course will also remain in the directory unless I receive a request to have it removed.
I am locking this thread. I think it has run its course. (no pun intended)
I am locking this thread. I think it has run its course. (no pun intended)
- Status
