[Innova] Last non mod disc that Innova produced?

[august dupree]

Not sure if this is serious. I wasnt going to comment on MVP, but that cat has jumped out of the bag. Axiom has always been, and known to be, the more colorful side of MVP. There has been overlap of their molds, and there probably always will be. It's not much different than Innova/Discmania, or Discraft/DGA. I would hope that their relationship as brands would not affect your feelings for Axiom.

I was just ribbing, sorry. The trolls got me worked into a frenzy. It's all good. I like most all Frisbees.

 

[smarkquart]

Didn't read more than the first couple pages. But unless the PDGA changes is rules to allow new discs to be made, pretty much everything has been done. All that's left is slapping different parts of molds together to make a "new" disc.

Loosening up the tech standards would be a bad idea. It is already difficult for TDs to enforce them; loosening them up more would make it infinitely more difficult to be enforced. Also, tight technical standards gives the sport some semblance of being a legitimate sport.

Most importantly, however, tight technical standards forces companies to be innovative in order to stay relevant as a manufacturer. If anything, players here apparently cannot have enough new discs. If something comes out that appears innovative, you know there is going to be a large crowd waiting to throw their money at that manufacturer. While manufacturers will not be able to make many "new" discs, what is wrong with tweaking a mold to make it better? If they get it right, you have a better disc and they have a buyer who will suddenly buy 10 of them. If they get it wrong, they have temporarily driven up the used-disc market.

Tight technical specs really is a win for the player. Manufacturers are now just as devoted to creating new plastics as they are to new discs. Having new plastics that are visually appealing (like Jolly Launcher) or have a superior grip and reliability (GStar) allow them to reintroduce their entire line and gives fresh life to "aging" molds.

 

[Aim For The Chains]

So innova just decided randomly to make 2 overmolded discs? Yeah okkkkkk. People are weird as hell on this site.

 

[august dupree]

Yo Big Sky, I actually like Axiom Discs quite a bit and I tend to gravitate towards the "more colorful side". The Envy and Theory have been game changers for me. Still not sure about the Crave it's been a love hate relationship as it competes directly with my teebirds. Sometimes I carry both just because I can. Looking forward to trying out the Wrath and Virus for sure.

 

[Halcón]

It's all good, August. I kind of figured you were kidding, but had to inform you anyway.

I want to thank Meulen for his contributions to this thread, also. :thmbup:

 

[AndyJB]

Not all have this advantage. MVP and Vibram (I believe) use unique mold pieces for every one of their discs.

MVP uses the same cores and sometimes the same overmolds.

I believe you are correct on Vibram...part of what takes them so long to come out with new discs.

 

[Halcón]

MVP uses the same cores and sometimes the same overmolds.

Same cores for sure. For example, I believe that all six (2 Axiom, 4 MVP) of the midranges use the same core. But each overmold is unique to its own disc.

 

[tbird888]

Same cores for sure. For example, I believe that all six (2 Axiom, 4 MVP) of the midranges use the same core. But each overmold is unique to its own disc.

As nice as it is to think "these pieces for Inertias, these for Inspires, these for Craves", I look at it like an ace disc. I could stop after one and call it a day, but if it struck gold once, who's to say it won't again...

The Impulse (Volt and Inertia too) I'm looking at now has zero tooling on the top of the overmold, and I'm guessing all of the drivers are the same way. They should be able to reuse it if they haven't already, and it would be foolish of them from a financial standpoint to not.

 

[onemilemore]

MVP uses the same cores and sometimes the same overmolds.

I believe you are correct on Vibram...part of what takes them so long to come out with new discs.

I think Vibram has used Ascent pieces on the Trak, or vice versa. Or maybe it was for the Trek.

 

[Halcón]

Maybe Zam, or one of the Bros could let us know.

 

[Flip Hyzerman]

Uh, no; it's a Firebird bottom speed 9 disc. Take off the fanboy glasses.

PD is up there in uniqueness. Then again, its just a faster TB and actually a discmania mold.

 

[Meulen]

Didn't read more than the first couple pages. But unless the PDGA changes is rules to allow new discs to be made, pretty much everything has been done. All that's left is slapping different parts of molds together to make a "new" disc.

I agree with this. As someone who has toyed around with designing discs, when you get down to it, you are confined to a very small box when it comes to disc geometry. It would be very difficult more a new company to design a disc that is truly unique and not comparable to some other disc already on the market. Kastaplast has done this, with a unique feature under the disc, which some would call innovation and others a gimmick.

Loosening up the tech standards would be a bad idea....Most importantly, however, tight technical standards forces companies to be innovative in order to stay relevant as a manufacturer.

I feel like this is a bit contradictory. It is difficult to be truly innovative when required to adhere to pretty strict guidelines. I'm not saying I don't agree with the current standards, but I do believe they stifle creativity to a degree. IMHO, running a disc in new plastic is not being innovative. There are thousands upon thousands of established polymer blends, and I'm sure there are salesmen who would like to sell you all of them.

I want to thank Meulen for his contributions to this thread, also. :thmbup:

Thanks! :hfive:

I believe you are correct on Vibram...part of what takes them so long to come out with new discs.

Vibram is a bit different in how their discs are produced. They utilize compression molding instead of injection molding. Tooling costs can be lower, but cycle times are higher. The cycle time alone may be the bottleneck of their operation (pure speculation), but with long cycle times for each disc and capacity constraints, maybe they don't have the capacity to have 20 different discs on the market, or maybe they are content with where they are at now. Again, that's just speculation on my part.

Before I finished typing this I wanted to fact check myself. Below is a video of Vibram from The Disc Golf Guy. The part I am referencing is at 1:45. It appears the mold pieces are a matched set based on the engravings on the mold pieces, and Steve also says the press will open after 10 minutes. A typical injection molding cycle time for a disc is approximately one minute. So if each manufacturer only has one mold for a specific disc, an injection molder will outpace Vibram 10:1 on production.

Same cores for sure. For example, I believe that all six (2 Axiom, 4 MVP) of the midranges use the same core. But each overmold is unique to its own disc.

Because I mentioned cavity and core earlier, I want to be sure I partially explain how the mold works to make sure everyone is on the same page. MVP is unique in that they need two separate molds to create one disc. First, they mold what they refer to as the "core". This is essentially their inner rim and the geometry the overmold will mate to. The image below is of a basic injection mold design, as pulled straight from the internet. I think disc golfers have adopted the term "core", but in its absolute meaning in the injection molding industry it is a part of the mold that creates half the part. There is a cavity, and there is a core. The emptiness in between is where the plastic fills to form the part.



I tried finding the MVP manufacturing video, but it looks like it got pulled. It showed them hand picking the "core" from the mold to have the outer portion of the disc molded in a second step.

 

[august dupree]

Meulen's posts are cash $$$

 

[Halcón]

I just plucked this from the Q and A thread:

10. How substantial is the difference between cores/rims between molds? E.g. do a Volt and Amp have the same core or rim? From a design perspective, is it possible to tweak discs by altering just one of the two to simplify the manufacturing process?*

"Each respective speed class of discs has their own core (some classes have two cores). Then the overmold sets are unique to each model. For optimal long term consistency, we mold cores as uniformly as possible on all models"

 

[disclover55]

innova versus the world

Responses to these threads are ignorant. Name a company that's been more continuously innovative than Innova. Of late: Tern, Krait, overmolds, G* plastic.... Eliminate companies that don't just produce copies of Innova and you're left with... who? MVP would be one, but they just attach new wings to the same two cores, so whoa so unoriginal! My point being, you can use semantics to make everything seem unoriginal. Innova has come up with more original disc shape ideas and set more disc shape standards than every other company combined.

I like innova. MVP is interesting an i love the atlas.

 

[T Strat]

Loosening up the tech standards would be a bad idea. It is already difficult for TDs to enforce them; loosening them up more would make it infinitely more difficult to be enforced. Also, tight technical standards gives the sport some semblance of being a legitimate sport.

Most importantly, however, tight technical standards forces companies to be innovative in order to stay relevant as a manufacturer. If anything, players here apparently cannot have enough new discs. If something comes out that appears innovative, you know there is going to be a large crowd waiting to throw their money at that manufacturer. While manufacturers will not be able to make many "new" discs, what is wrong with tweaking a mold to make it better? If they get it right, you have a better disc and they have a buyer who will suddenly buy 10 of them. If they get it wrong, they have temporarily driven up the used-disc market.

Tight technical specs really is a win for the player. Manufacturers are now just as devoted to creating new plastics as they are to new discs. Having new plastics that are visually appealing (like Jolly Launcher) or have a superior grip and reliability (GStar) allow them to reintroduce their entire line and gives fresh life to "aging" molds.

I was not challenging the standards. Just stating there is not much left that is going to blow anyone's mind.

 

[DanJon]

So MVP just decided randomly to make overmolded discs? Yeah okkkkkk. People are weird as hell on this site.

FTFY

 

[ed IV]

that was just a desperate try to compete with MVP to me.. atlas flies and sounds very similar to the atlas while Nova took a baseline "anode" like spot.

Jokes.

PD is up there in uniqueness. Then again, its just a faster TB and actually a discmania mold.

-in production yes. Unique? Idk, im sure that there are others that have more in depth information than me but I belive that the PD is the same or same disc as a millennium SOS (not pdga approved) or a Valkarie-X. Which is a valk top w a firebird bottom. the pd may or maynot have a nose spacer.... so yeah unique

 

[tbird888]

The PD has a Firebird lower wing and a Discmania exclusive Anhyzer top. The very first PDs were run with a TeeRex top.

 

[ed IV]

The PD has a Firebird lower wing and a Discmania exclusive Anhyzer top. The very first PDs were run with a TeeRex top.

Im glad to see your reply in this thread tb. do you by chance know what mold parts made up the original discmania CD?