Learning Lefty

[Melonhusk]

I'm currently rehabbing my right elbow, and not totally sure when I'll be able to throw either backhands or forehands again, so it seems like as good a time as any to learn a lefty backhand.

I've done a ton of work on my righty backhand in the last year, and felt like I had made a huge breakthrough right when I needed to stop throwing, so I'm hoping that I can at least learn lefty the right way.

That said, I went to the field today and did some hammer tosses, and then tried to see what I could do with some slow understable discs. I think I started to slowly get a better feel as time went on (this was my first time actually releasing the hammer, either righty or lefty), but I struggled throughout with my arm getting trapped behind my body, and using too much arm at the end to try to fling it upwards.

The disc throws were horrible; my left arm doesn't really know yet how to get into that power pocket position and then extend. And I threw them all way up in the air. The last throw I did from the elephant walk instead of the hammer toss and that went a little better; at least it came out of my hand clean and flew a little ways.



Any advice is appreciated! I was just starting to get a hang of applying the hammer sensation to the throw with my right hand and it helped a ton, so I'd definitely like to make sure I have a handle on this right off the bat for my left handed throws.

 

[sidewinder22]

Trying to do too much with your feet and body and not waiting or letting your arm swing sync up. You want a compact body movement to make a big arm/disc whip. The swing should pull your feet off the ground, rather than you jumping off the ground.

Keep shoulders closed to swing/release out:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q5xfv9jPqZs#t=8m26s

Go in slow motion with shoulders closed and elbow up and hammer out from center chest.

 

[Melonhusk]

Yeah, that time stamp you linked really captured what I was doing wrong. It's crazy how much I took for granted, I mean I knew throwing lefty would be ugly at first but I didn't realize that my left arm just wouldn't have any feel for dingle arming whatsoever. Anyway, thanks! This Malaska video is great, I'm gonna have to try swinging a stick. Not that the people at the park aren't confused enough already.

 

[Melonhusk]

Got out in the field again, throwing some more hammers and discs. I think I made some progress in letting my arm catch up more, but still had significant problems with opening up too early.



Here are the hammer throws. I started off swinging too vertically, and then went back to the hammer drill video and corrected to more of a diagonal swing plane. I noticed even with this correction it was tough sometimes not to follow through straight up, like I was tossing a horseshoe - just seemed like what my body wanted to do. So I tried to fix this as well, by drilling a follow through more behind my back. Lastly, for fun I did an x-step throw. I followed through vertically again on this one, but it still got me my best hammer distance so far.




And here are the disc throws - which I worked on sort of on and off with the hammer throws, trying to get a feeling down with the hammer and then see how it worked with a disc. It went pretty horrible at first, just opening up too early all over the place, and then I had the idea to try pretending I was stepping out for a pass in ultimate, to see if that mental cue would help me throw it more, instead of using all body. This did get me some cleaner throws, though I think I was yanking the disc through a bit with my shoulder. Lastly I just tried to open up on one with a midrange to see where I was at. Definitely better than last week! I think that last throw went about 200, and my arm felt like it was swinging a bit more freely by the end.

As always, any advice is welcome!

 

[sidewinder22]

Need to let the arm/hammer pull your shoulder back taut behind rear shoulder like tug of war / door frame drill. Don't try to keep the hammer wide to the right side of tee, you are trying to manipulate the hammer with your arm instead of letting it go and swinging the shoulder.

Note how I'm swinging more left to right in bottom inline with diagonal stance, and releasing out wide, swinging from inside-out. Your hand is swinging more from the outside - in and rounding/hooking.

https://www.dgcoursereview.com/forums/showthread.php?t=132910

 

[Melonhusk]

Gotcha, thanks! I see the difference and how doing that gives you a similar "hit" point with the hammer as you would want with a disc, sort of diagonally in front and to the side, not directly in front.

Why is it that when throwing a disc you have to keep it wide of your body on the backswing in order to get that hit point, but the hammer doesn't work the same way? Does it have to do with the way you set up your feet with the hammer drill - closed off, rather than in line to the target?

 

[sidewinder22]

The hammer typically pulls your shoulders further back. The disc doesn't have to stay to the side if your shoulders rotate further back. So the upper arm is wide from the shoulder/chest, that is the only thing that matters in rounding.

 

[Melonhusk]

Right, ok makes sense. One more question, just out of curiosity - why the more closed off stance for the hammer drill? It definitely feels natural to do it like that, but also different than the straighter stance I thought was more ideal for throwing.

 

[sidewinder22]

why the more closed off stance for the hammer drill?

It's not just for hammers. It gets the rear leg more out of the way of the swing and leveraged from inside-out.

 

[Melonhusk]

It seems like maybe there's a distinction I'm not understanding - while I was able to work on my righty throw I was trying to get my feet straightened out from something like this:

to something like this:

or this:

And aren't those second two examples different than this:

or even this?

By contrast, your earlier gif of the slow motion hammer swing



seems to feature that more feet-in-line approach. I know drills are drills, and supposed to exaggerate certain aspects of the whole movement so I just wondered if maybe the more closed off stance was supposed to exaggerate a feeling, but maybe I'm just misinterpreting the whole concept.

 

[sidewinder22]

It seems like maybe there's a distinction I'm not understanding - while I was able to work on my righty throw I was trying to get my feet straightened out from something like this:

By contrast, your earlier gif of the slow motion hammer swing

seems to feature that more feet-in-line approach. I know drills are drills, and supposed to exaggerate certain aspects of the whole movement so I just wondered if maybe the more closed off stance was supposed to exaggerate a feeling, but maybe I'm just misinterpreting the whole concept.

In the slow motion hammer drill, the swing is not heavy and has zero momentum and needs tension to maintain taut, I can place the hammer wherever I want so long as my posture doesn't collapse anywhere or get out of position of leverage. When you start letting go of tension and swinging something heavy like a hammer or battering ram, things naturally become more diagonal or rotational unless you are fighting the swing momentum - don't fight it or try to force it with your arm, it should be pulling your arm wider until you start to transition forward like door frame drill. Now door frame drill stance should be almost inline, couple inches of stagger, there is zero swing momentum and you want linear straight line force from lead shoulder to rear foot/toes loading/pulling back through the lead lat to rear glute oblique sling like bow and arrow.

With the battering ram and hammer toss, note how my rear knee is extended at the top of the backswing and the rear hip is still back/deep. Now looking at Eagle and me throwing we have more forward momentum doing x-step and have transitioned into the forward swing already and the rear knee is bent and almost inline with the front knee and the rear hip still has depth behind the rear knee and rear hip is rotating or swiveling leveraged from behind the knee, pulling the hip.

If you compare that to your rear leg, your rear hip has lost any depth it might have had, and so your knees(and elbows) are very spread out left/right across the pad/stance and have lost leverage to swivel your pelvis efficiently, and can only try to push or extend your hip out. Your right shoulder is also spread far away from your rear leg, so it's not loading straight back more inside the rear foot like door frame drill/inside swing drill.

If you just stand up normal about shoulder width or can even do it feet together, don't worry about stagger and don't crouch or bend your knees or lock them out, should be in relaxed upright standing position for days, glutes engaged and plantar flexion should spring your pelvis easily. If you crouch and bend your knees and disengage the glutes, then plantar flexion does almost nothing to the pelvis. Now standing up, bend one knee and straighten the other knee, your feet should be pushing to the left and right like walking perpendicular to the target and this will swivel your pelvis and bend/extend the knees.

Most people throwing try to extend the rear knee to rotate the pelvis targetward, this is backwards from how it works, the rear knee flexes to allow the pelvis to rotate! Just like walking! When you extend your trailing knee when walking you are driving the opposite hip targetward and counter-rotating the trailing hip, and then you have to bend the trailing knee to allow the trailing leg and hip/pelvis to swing/swivel forward into the next step.

https://www.dgcoursereview.com/forums/showthread.php?t=136487

 

[Melonhusk]

Thanks so much for the detailed reply! That definitely clears some things up. I don't think I've ever understood the walking analogy before, but with that weight shift video and your description of it I think I've finally connected the dots, can totally feel that in the hammer swing now.

 

[Melonhusk]

Alright, got out on lunch break and was able to film a lefty hammer throw, trying to incorporate the "walking" weight shift, and also tried to get my shoulders turned more. Sorry for the horrific video quality - had to film from the ground on my phone - I hope there's something to be gleaned from it. I pulled the shot badly, so I'm guessing I didn't get closed off enough?



Also, a question for you sidewinder: what weight hammer do you use, or recommend? Mine is 4 lbs, and I experienced some UCL soreness after this, which is worrying because a much worse and more aggravated version of that is what my right arm is currently going through. Wondering if my sledgehammer might be too much too soon for an arm that's never really thrown anything.

Thanks!

 

[sidewinder22]

Effortless toss with shoulders closed, the hammer will pull the shoulders open when you swing it.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q5xfv9jPqZs#t=8m26s

Address position with shoulders open vs closed and eyes on hammer:

Not sure the weight on this, but I'm sure it's 4+ lbs.

 

[Melonhusk]

Ok I think I see, so to be properly closed off I sort of have to pretend the target is forward and to the right - right? Because that's where the hit point is going to be?

Not sure the weight on this, but I'm sure it's 4+ lbs.

Yeah, that hammer looks about like mine. I guess maybe my left arm just isn't conditioned enough to throw something like that yet, which is a shame, because at that weight I can really tell when something's not working. I can't throw it anywhere with my arm alone.

 

[Melonhusk]

My left arm is finally back! Right elbow still needs some time, unfortunately. Anyway, I was able to get out today and throw some lefty shots and seem to have really improved, I guess just from practicing whatever drills I could at home without swinging my arm too hard.

My footwork looks more like a baseball swing, or even a forehand shot than a backhand so I guess I need to get more closed off in my front foot and shoulders. And it looks like my right shoulder is swinging around in too wide of an arc? I don't know if that's the best way to describe it, but it's not really driving down, more swinging around my body. At least my wrist and lower arm are getting the hang of how to release the disc smoothly! I settled on a kind of Seppo thing where I don't move my arm all that much from the power pocket, helped to have fewer moving parts to focus on.

 

[sidewinder22]

Looks like both your arms/elbows are too far behind your body and you fall over to the right into the plant and landing heel first.

 

[Melonhusk]

Oh yeah that's interesting, my heel does come down first. I guess it makes sense I'd be rounding a bit too, it's really hard for me to commit to my shoulders turning all the way for some reason from the left side so I was probably compensating with my elbow. Thanks!

 

[Melonhusk]

Here are a few videos from today. This first one it seems like I get a little leaned back on my back foot, and then also I still feel like when I come through my hips and back shoulder look like they think I'm throwing a baseball? I also didn't realize I was doing the t rex arm with my right arm until I watched the video.



Tried to correct that in this one, and I think it looks like I was on track to do everything a little better - and then I slapped the disc with my right hand, which somehow I've never done before.



Overall though, throwing is really feeling significantly smoother every time! I almost feel like even with all these issues my fundamentals are better right now with my left than they were with my right.

 

[sidewinder22]

Lol, I didn't notice you hit the disc until you mentioned it, and was wondering why it was so nose up. Your left elbow is too low if you are hitting the disc with your right arm.

In the 1st vid your right arm is swinging out around like hook punch or baseball sidearm like you say, instead of coming thru inside closer to center and underneath more like an uppercut or bowling or softball pitch. Try starting with the right arm across your body under neath your left arm/backswing and then separate your arms in opposite directions like ripping a phone book apart.