Legality of a slap putt

[R-Ogre]

As far as I can tell there are only 3 possible outcomes when you release a disc, any disc from your hand in a throwing motion.
1. "The throw"
2. "Toss" must be less than 5 meters AND for the purpose of setting aside a disc or returning it to another player.
3. "Practice throw" any throw that is not either of the above, which results in a re-throw and penalty.

 

[R-Ogre]

Note that a drop is NOT a throw...so if you could raise the disc and drop it into the slap, would that be legal?

 

[teemkey]

Note that a drop is NOT a throw...so if you could raise the disc and drop it into the slap, would that be legal?

Releasing the disc is either intentional or unintentional, not both. I don't think it's wise to introduce concepts like superposition (quantum mechanics) to the PDGA rule book.

 

[R-Ogre]

Releasing the disc is either intentional or unintentional, not both. I don't think it's wise to introduce concepts like superposition (quantum mechanics) to the PDGA rule book.

When talking about drops, they don't say anything about intentional vs unintentional. Just that you cannot be penalized for a practice throw when dropping the disc.

Of course this is taking things to absurdity, but isn't that the point of the rules forum?

 

[teemkey]

When talking about drops, they don't say anything about intentional vs unintentional. Just that you cannot be penalized for a practice throw when dropping the disc.

Of course this is taking things to absurdity, but isn't that the point of the rules forum?

Well yes, but a drop is not an intentional release of the disc to change the lie; that is, it does not meet the definition of a throw. So, since a practice throw is an intentional release of the disc NOT meant to change the lie, intentionality appears to be the only difference.

 

[Agricolae]

I am on the side of "technically illegal but why would anyone give a crap?" I also once played a round where I dropkicked all my putts after about half way through.

Note that a drop is NOT a throw...so if you could raise the disc and drop it into the slap, would that be legal?

When talking about drops, they don't say anything about intentional vs unintentional. Just that you cannot be penalized for a practice throw when dropping the disc.

So, slap putts could be illegal since the disc is "thrown" before the slap but drop kicks are ok since we are dropping the disc before the kick ... correct? I hope so because there are often times when I want to drop kick my disc; but not if I'll incur an extra penalty stroke on top of the drop kick stroke.

Well yes, but a drop is not an intentional release of the disc to change the lie; that is, it does not meet the definition of a throw. So, since a practice throw is an intentional release of the disc NOT meant to change the lie, intentionality appears to be the only difference.

Uh-oh. I DO want to change the lie but I have to drop it before I can kick it. I'm confused again.

 

[zenbot]

While we're on the topic, how far can y'all slapchop a disc?

 

[Steve West]

As far as I can tell there are only 3 possible outcomes when you release a disc, any disc from your hand in a throwing motion.
1. "The throw"
2. "Toss" must be less than 5 meters AND for the purpose of setting aside a disc or returning it to another player.
3. "Practice throw" any throw that is not either of the above, which results in a re-throw and penalty.

In #2. the rule says to "a player", not "another player". Have fun with what that implies.

 

[BillFleming]

In #2. the rule says to "a player", not "another player". Have fun with what that implies.

Oh, here we go....you are adding more to the fun.

Based on that - a player - you could say the upwards movement of the disc prior to the slap is a "toss" by the rule and as long as it doesn't go more than 5 meters it isn't penalized nor is it a throw. The player can claim they are "returning the disc to themselves as they are 'a player'.

The original question has taken us (or just me) down the rabbit hole of "what about this interpretation".

But the questions on what is a throw still remain - what is meant by "forward"? One part of the throw definition that seems to have been overlooked is the word "begins". A throw BEGINS when..... so if the disc changes direction (grip lock, wind, etc) after the initial part of the throw....it is still a throw. Seems we are at: once the disc has started forward in the intended direction, it is a throw regardless of what then happens. But what is the meaning of forward? I can see players arguing that part - is forward in the direction of the basket? Is it forward from the player? Maybe instead of "A throw begins when the disc is moving forward in the intended direction.", it should be "A throw begins when the disc is moving away from the player in the intended direction."

 

[R-Ogre]

In #2. the rule says to "a player", not "another player". Have fun with what that implies.

Yesssss this is what I'm here for

 

[R-Ogre]

So, slap putts could be illegal since the disc is "thrown" before the slap but drop kicks are ok since we are dropping the disc before the kick ... correct? I hope so because there are often times when I want to drop kick my disc; but not if I'll incur an extra penalty stroke on top of the drop kick stroke.



Uh-oh. I DO want to change the lie but I have to drop it before I can kick it. I'm confused again.

This is also what I'm here for

 

[teemkey]

So, slap putts could be illegal since the disc is "thrown" before the slap but drop kicks are ok since we are dropping the disc before the kick ... correct? I hope so because there are often times when I want to drop kick my disc; but not if I'll incur an extra penalty stroke on top of the drop kick stroke.

Uh-oh. I DO want to change the lie but I have to drop it before I can kick it. I'm confused again.

If the player is going for a drop kicj, then the disc is released with the intent to change the lie with the (soon to follow -- and illegal) kick.

More interesting would be a place kick where the player's caddie holds the disc vertically on the lie, and the player kicks it into the basket.

 

[Nale72]

Oh, here we go....you are adding more to the fun.

Based on that - a player - you could say the upwards movement of the disc prior to the slap is a "toss" by the rule and as long as it doesn't go more than 5 meters it isn't penalized nor is it a throw. The player can claim they are "returning the disc to themselves as they are 'a player'.

The original question has taken us (or just me) down the rabbit hole of "what about this interpretation".

But the questions on what is a throw still remain - what is meant by "forward"? One part of the throw definition that seems to have been overlooked is the word "begins". A throw BEGINS when..... so if the disc changes direction (grip lock, wind, etc) after the initial part of the throw....it is still a throw. Seems we are at: once the disc has started forward in the intended direction, it is a throw regardless of what then happens. But what is the meaning of forward? I can see players arguing that part - is forward in the direction of the basket? Is it forward from the player? Maybe instead of "A throw begins when the disc is moving forward in the intended direction.", it should be "A throw begins when the disc is moving away from the player in the intended direction."

But you must still fulfill this:

802.01 Throw
A. A throw is the propulsion and release of a disc in order to change its position. Each throw that is made as a competitive attempt to change the lie is counted.

It's just like in golf ("ballgolf"), it has to do with the players intention. Is it the players intention that this "toss", vertically (more or less) upwards is done with the intention of it to be his "throw" and that when the disc lands that will be his new lie one throw later? I say no. It's in this case the slap/hit/push of the disc in step two that is the action intented to change the lie.

Some interpretations in this thread would suggest that if you just casually stood and flipped/tossed your disc up and catch it again, while waiting for your turn or just before throwing/putting would be a practice throw. A practice throw would suggest a re-throw from the previous lie and a penalty throw. But the lie hasn't been changed since you just tossed/flipped it up and grabbed it again. And it wasn't your intention to change the lie, so it can't be a practice throw.

Just like in "ballgolf" you sometimes can't look at every single word taken out of it's context. You have to look at the total context. What is the intention of this rule/Q&A and what was the intention of the players action in each step. If you look at it like this, I can't understand how the OP player action of tossing the disc up vertically can be interpreted as either being a "throw" or a "practice throw".

To settle the whole "slap putt thing" there could be an addition to the rule or Q&A that say that the player must have the disc in a firm hold/grip before the throw for it to be a proper throw, and something to clarify that a slap/hit/kick on a "airborne" disc is never allowed. But this isn't in the rules as they are as far as I can tell. They only say there are no restrictions on how to make a throw.

On the other hand could it ever be an advantage to hit/slap/kick the disc instead of throwing it in a regular fashion? I don't think so. And if there is no advantage, just let them do it.

 

[Nale72]

On the other hand, maybe you can argue that if you slap/hit/kick the disc you haven't "released" the disc. To be able to release a disc I guess you in the first place have to hold/grab it in some way?

But what that would imply then is that:

1. The "toss" is no throw/practice throw
2. The "slap" is no throw/practice throw

So you still haven't made a throw to change your lie. I can't find the rule that gives you a penalty throw for either the "toss" or the "slap", but you still haven't completed the hole since you haven't made a throw into the target.

In that case, when the player tees off on the next hole it's a Misplay since he haven't completed the last hole, which gives the player two penalty throws + one for completing the hole since it wasn't intentional to not complete the hole. (811.F.3)

 

[robdeforge]

1. Each throw that is made as a competitive attempt to change the lie is counted.

I said "I'd argue that the player attempting a slap putt intentionally released the disc and intended to change their lie by interfering with the disc's flight."

And I'm suggesting that the initial toss up was not a competitive attempt to change the lie, because it's not

2. A throw begins when the disc is moving forward in the intended direction.

That is a poorly worded definition. If I grip lock 90 degrees off my intended line is it not a throw (e.g. google "WTF Richard")?

I don't think you're reading this right. before the disc was grip locked and sent off course, it WAS moving forward in the intended direction. therefore before the griplock the conditions were a throw were met, so yes a griplock counts as a throw

 

[teemkey]

1. And I'm suggesting that the initial toss up was not a competitive attempt to change the lie, because it's not

2. I don't think you're reading this right. before the disc was grip locked and sent off course, it WAS moving forward in the intended direction. therefore before the griplock the conditions were a throw were met, so yes a griplock counts as a throw

I think we need to agree on the definition of intent. Intent implies a preconceived action or set of actions, i.e. "a plan."

In case 1 the player plans the slap putt as tossing his putter upwards then slapping it as it descends so that it is propelled into the basket. So it's a set of actions: (1) toss it upwards; (2) slap it into the basket. Hence, when the player tosses the putter upwards up, it is the first action of a plan to change the lie.

In case 2, the player (assume a RHBH tee shot on a 320' hole) plans to release the disc at a slight hyzer angle aimed 30' right of the target, after release the disc will stand up, drift about 10' right, then fade into the chains. Since the player has never thrown a disc more than 260' before, some extra effort is necessary, and a grip lock results in the disc flying 90 degrees right of the intended line. Hence, although the player intended to release the disc and change the lie, the disc did not go in the intended direction.

Please describe your interpretation of the players intent in these two cases.

tia

 

[robdeforge]

I think we need to agree on the definition of intent. Intent implies a preconceived action or set of actions, i.e. "a plan."

In case 1 the player plans the slap putt as tossing his putter upwards then slapping it as it descends so that it is propelled into the basket. So it's a set of actions: (1) toss it upwards; (2) slap it into the basket. Hence, when the player tosses the putter upwards up, it is the first action of a plan to change the lie.

The toss up does not begin the throw. "A throw begins when the disc is moving forward in the intended direction." Because the disc is moving up, and not forward in the intended direction, the throw has not yet started.

the hitting of the disc is the throwing motion, not the toss up and the hitting motion.

In case 2, the player (assume a RHBH tee shot on a 320' hole) plans to release the disc at a slight hyzer angle aimed 30' right of the target, after release the disc will stand up, drift about 10' right, then fade into the chains. Since the player has never thrown a disc more than 260' before, some extra effort is necessary, and a grip lock results in the disc flying 90 degrees right of the intended line. Hence, although the player intended to release the disc and change the lie, the disc did not go in the intended direction.

Please describe your interpretation of the players intent in these two cases.

tia

in case 2, the player's throw begins when the disc is moving forward in the intended direction. this is presumably at some point during an x-step when the player starts to bring the disc forward. whatever happens after that point is the completion of the throwing motion that has been started (because the disc is moving forward in the intended direction), so it doesn't matter that it goes intended intended intended intended UNINTENDED

hope that clears up what I've been trying to say

 

[Cgkdisc]

It would be cooler to call this a "Slap Shot." Sounds more athletic.

 

[teemkey]

The toss up does not begin the throw. "A throw begins when the disc is moving forward in the intended direction." Because the disc is moving up, and not forward in the intended direction, the throw has not yet started.

the hitting of the disc is the throwing motion, not the toss up and the hitting motion.



in case 2, the player's throw begins when the disc is moving forward in the intended direction. this is presumably at some point during an x-step when the player starts to bring the disc forward. whatever happens after that point is the completion of the throwing motion that has been started (because the disc is moving forward in the intended direction), so it doesn't matter that it goes intended intended intended intended UNINTENDED

hope that clears up what I've been trying to say

First off, you're changing your definition of "the intended direction" between the two cases. For the slap putt you're using the direction the disc is flying, but for the grip lock case you're using the direction of the player's arm motion before the disc is released. I'll agree that either action might be an indication of intention, but I don't agree that either defines intention.

I think we need to agree not only on the definition of intention; but also on the PDGA definition of a throw. When I go to the rule book Index and click on the link to "throw," I'm sent to section 802.01:

A. A throw is the propulsion and release of a disc in order to change its position. Each throw that is made as a competitive attempt to change the lie is counted.

There is no "intended direction" in the official PDGA definition of a throw, so let's go with the rule book from here on out when we define a throw. 'K?

In the case of the slap putt, the player will release and propel the disc vertically, intending to change the lie by slapping the disc into the basket. The vertical toss meets the criteria of propulsion and release but is not a competitive attempt to change the the lie. The slap meets the criteria of propulsion and a competitive attempt to change the lie, but is not a release -- the disc has already been released, and is in motion.

The PDGA rule book covers the case of a throw not made as a competitive attempt to change the lie. It is a practice throw

809.03
A. A practice throw is any throw that is not made as a competitive attempt to change the lie, except for a throw that is made either to set aside an unused disc or to return a disc to a player and that travels less than five meters in the air. A drop is not a practice throw.

B. A player receives one penalty throw for making a practice throw.; the throw itself is disregarded.

And the PDGA rule book covers the case of altering the course of a disc in motion.

810.E
A player who intentionally interferes with a disc in any of the following ways receives two penalty throws:

1. Altering the course of a thrown disc (other than to prevent injury)
...

So the first penalty is for a practice throw (one throw), and the second penalty is for intentional interference (two throws). However, it seems unfair to penalize a player for interfering with a practice throw, so I'll revise my penalty assessment to one throw.

PS: The grip lock case is fully compliant with the above definition of a throw.

 

[robdeforge]

First off, you're changing your definition of "the intended direction" between the two cases. For the slap putt you're using the direction the disc is flying, but for the grip lock case you're using the direction of the player's arm motion before the disc is released. I'll agree that either action might be an indication of intention, but I don't agree that either defines intention.

No, I'm focused on the "forward in the intended direction" part. A toss up is not moving forward in the intended direction. Since the disc is not yet moving forward in the intended direction during the toss up, the throw hasn't begun (because once again the rules state "a throw begins when the disc is moving forward in the intended direction")

The throwing motion for both players begins when that happens. For the slapshotter, the throwing motion begins when they slap the disc. For the griplocker, the throwing motion begins when the disc is moving forward in the intended direction, from the peak of their reachback. (this Q&A is about a disc being knocked out during a backswing, so it is explicitly saying that the throw begins when your swing, or other movement, starts going forward)

There is no "intended direction" in the official PDGA definition of a throw, so let's go with the rule book from here on out when we define a throw. 'K?

I don't know why you think you can just ignore that Q&A. But yes, if you completely ignore a section of the rulebook then I agree that your interpretation would make sense