Low fade midranges

[jubuttib]

Actually I was referring to D and C-Lines, and one of the throws was a new flat gummy C that had been thrown maybe 6 times total so far. Air it out and yeah, it'll fade, but not on a low line. Plus overall if one is looking for a true neutral disc, I think looking for such a thing in a new one is fairly ridiculous, because it won't stay there for long. The best neutral discs in the long run are the ones that start out a bit on the overstable side.

The last P-Lines I actually threw weren't even that straight, they had much more of an S-curve flight to them. For out of the box straightness I'd go with a light D-MD2. And actually that's what I indeed do.

 

[JR]

No experience with a D or a gummy C. My flat C (musician joke place?) was of regular stiffness and that does indeed fade hard in the end and requires a lot of power. The fade does kick in late though on low lines at power. I've encountered two differently HSS P-lines of which the other did indeed flip and fade and the other flipped only a couple of degrees fading way less than the stiffer flat C MD2. No idea about the run evolution, material changes and individual disc difference regularity and amounts across all plastics in MD2s. Unfortunately(/fortunately if you need variety and can recognize the needed stabilities by sight in local shops) there are so many different kind of flights in MD2s that saying the mold produces low fade discs is misleading. The variances range from headwind straight disc to calm weather understable discs with some of them being straight and others s-curvers in calm winds. So the blanket statement of the low fadedness of the MD2 is not helpful for the uninitiated. They would likely gain a good disc but not necessarily one for the role they were thinking of. Kinda like the PDs. Covering about the whole spectrum of stabilities for their speed and distance given some wear for the most understable roles.

 

[jubuttib]

If the non-gummy flat Cs fade hard, then admittedly it's a bad recommendation. But I've yet to see a D-Line that didn't have very low fade when starting out (damn I love those discs, and once worn for a few months they become incredibly good understable mids as well), and the new S-Lines I've seen have also all had very low amount of fade (not saying that there can't be other kinds out there, but I've yet to see one). The flat gummy Cs are legendary by now. You can get a variety of flights from any and all disc molds, but I'd still put the MD2 firmly in the low fade true neutral camp, when it's only (apparently) two specific kinds that don't have that kind of flight: Stiff flat Cs being overstable and some P-Lines being lower HSS.

Need to find me some of those stiff C-lines then, an overstable MD2 sounds intriguing as an option for some holes. If it's overstable enough it might even get the Vector out of my bag, filling another slot with DM plastic.

 

[Stringbean]

Have you tried the new QMS? They are pretty overstable, not straight with heavy fade but more of a gradual hyzer line.

I wasn't a fan at first, I don't like the JL plastic and they were too overstable for my needs. I tried trading/selling them but no interest. So I decided to beat them up with field plastic to see how they break in.

The plastic is starting to lose that slick oily feel and they are gradually straightening out. The postiive with this new mold is they don't have that sharp edge on the bottom of the rim. Plus they are a bit faster... definitely will be going in the bag after they straighten out a little more.

 

[JR]

Good to know about the s md2. The d breaking in to start turning in two months can be too quick for my taste unless the turn is only 1-3 degrees and stabilizes there. Still i prefer no flip at all.

The stiff flat c md2 is not Vector type os. It really is a Jekyll and Hyde disc depending on power and height. It is more like a z Buzz in calm conditions and more hss not turning in headwinds until they are strong. The difference in fade is a later more abrupt with the md2 on low lines. And depending on the height and power can be earlier and in every case much much harder yet less than with the early Vectors i tried. So the md2 is not as consistent thus easy to throw to different heights than the z Buzz.

My findings are just initial but the lucid Truth has seemed promising for the straight role and the n Axis powered is tasty as well and they each compete for the same spot. It comes to tadte grip and wind conditions which is best. The Axis has more fade than some md2s but the little brother Tangent is just shit hot for straight shots so i think the n Axis is designed to have more fade. It is pretty close in fade to stiff flat c md2s on low lines and not as harsh in fading higher up.

 

[Yig.]

U guys are too damn technical. :shock:

Not really.


I mentioned that I got a Warship a few posts back. I would not put it in this category unless it is thrown on a low line drive.

Seems a bit understable with a fair amount of fade. It is certainly not a replacement for a Mako3.

Of course this is just my opinion.

I wish I could find a disc that flew like my old Champ cobra (flat topped) but had less fade.

Mako3 is close, but is certainly domier and to me was a one trick pony , meaning BH only.

My old Champ Cobra is a workhorse, I can throw it BH, FH, OH, and it just works. If only it had less fade. :?




...............................Blake

 

[Stringbean]

That's how I use my Super Stingrays. The knock on those is the terrible flashing on the bottom of the rim. I have a CFR star super stingray that is board flat with a high PLH. The shallow rim of the Super Stingray makes it easy to forehand. Look for a flat one and you may have a nice replacement for your Cobra.

 

[JR]

Wow mine has a good deal of dome so color me surprised about flat ones. How do the flight paths differ? It is sad that there is so much dome difference. I saw a flat topped after the shoulder pro Beast yesterday. Each of mine are domey even in the middle. The shoulders are different too. So not great consistency even compared to what they have done in previous years.

 

[coppertop]

A little update from my bag: I found a slightly used QMS at the local PIAS. For me, it was very, very straight with only the slightest of fade at the end of the flight. I had a straight shot at a basket from about 100-120' out, and I gave it a low, line-drive shot about 4-5 feet off the ground. I kept waiting for it to fade left, but it just kept gliding straight at the basket. It finally drifted about 2 feet left as it sat down, no skip, for a drop in putt. The profile and feel is very much like the recycled plastic Claymore from the trilogy challenge. It feels like it flies best a tick slower than the Claymore, though. I like it.

 

[money 21]

i would put the ibex in this catagorey as a low fade mid.

 

[Widdershins]

The new Z Buzzz SS's are great.

When the Buzzz SS came out many years ago (5 years ago?) I was not a fan. They had almost the same stability as a Buzzz but were more domey. So back then I thought they were just an inferior Buzzz.

For at least the last year or so the Buzzz SS's have been coming our flat and feel great. I have a stack I practice with and they fly just like my broken in Buzzz's.

We all know how long it takes a candy disc to break in. Because of this I have always traded for used discs to keep backups in stock. I did a run of Discraft Baby! stamps on Buzzzes. One of these I sold to a friend, he used it for 3 years then when he wanted a brand new one from the same run (same weight, color and stamp) I traded him a new one for his used one. I think I got the better of this deal. Anyway this disc has been my workhorse Buzzz for the past couple of years.

When I tested the flat top Buzzz SS's against my workhorse, broken in Buzzz they were right there. I would highly recommend them. Bright colors, pearly plastic, great stuff.

 

[JR]

How many feet of fade less do new flat Buzzz SSs have va a new flat top high plh z Buzzz? How much more turn there is with the SS, like a new X Buzz? Do SSs come in tacky plastics? Z Buzzz has been my main mid for years and on many local holes it fades too much. Are the distances the same with the SS vs a normal?

 

[PMantle1]

We all know how long it takes a candy disc to break in. Because of this I have always traded for used discs to keep backups in stock.

Yeah, I really don't want to buy new ones anymore unless I am buying it for an overstable slot to begin with.

 

[Widdershins]

How many feet of fade less do new flat Buzzz SSs have va a new flat top high plh z Buzzz? How much more turn there is with the SS, like a new X Buzz? Do SSs come in tacky plastics? Z Buzzz has been my main mid for years and on many local holes it fades too much. Are the distances the same with the SS vs a normal?

I'm not sure I can answer your questions. I don't even think about disc flight in some of these terms. Even if you could watch my shots with different Buzzz's I'm not sure it would help much unless we threw with very similar form and power.

I don't throw mid ranges hard. In my game they fit a slot from 100-250 feet in distance with most of them 150-240 feet. Their greatest value is tight tunnels which are straight or slight anhyzers. I seldom throw a Buzzz trying to make it hyzer. For hyzers I typically ramp up to a driver. Oh and since I am forehand dominant I seldom throw anything backhand outside of 100', and never try to throw backhand more than 250'.

I referred to my beautifully broken in and beloved workhorse Buzzz. This disc goes dead nuts straight when I release it flat out to about 220'. The new Z Buzzz SS's will do this as well. For the same shot a strong, fresh Z Buzzz will start out straight but hyzer as it slows down. How many feet does it break? I'm guessing 20-30 or so. I would only throw a fresh Buzzz for this shot (to finish straight or a slight anny) into a firm headwind.

The plastic for the Z Buzzz and new Z Buzzz SS is the same (understanding that from run to run there are inevitably slight differences). Discraft Z plastic is generally what I prefer for mids and drivers. Is this tacky? I love it but how you think of it depends on your definition and preferences. Z plastic tends to mold flatter than X. Z tends to mold flatter than ESP in drivers. Z Buzzzs mold flat (superbly flat, in the good runs) where ESP sometimes dips in slightly concave.

Off the shelf an X Buzzz is more overstable than a Z Buzzz SS but less stable than a Z Buzzz. An X Buzzz breaks in faster than Z plastic and also breaks in to a greater degree. So my most flippy Buzzz is an X, with years of seasoning to get to that level.

The longer the tunnel (or upshot distance) the more I ramp up to a stronger Buzzz. Thrown forehand, there is too greater a danger of flipping a Buzzz over the harder it is thrown. This danger is much reduced backhand due to less flutter on the release.

I don't notice any distance difference in terms of glide (except to the degree that any overstable disc inherently has less glide) but again, I don't throw mids hard.

So my answers are probably inadequate for your needs. But I would say if you love a Z Buzzz and want the same thing in less stability then you should try the Z Buzzz SS.

 

[JR]

Thanks Mark i think it described the Buzzz SS enough for me. Z is great in the summer when it does not rain. It is the worse two thirds of the season now. I have been seduced by longer mids because in tunnels straight but reaching the basket is nice. The lesser fade could help in gaining distance over the z and the x. But it is not good enough to overcome the gap to the Fuse i am using i presume. I would not mind being proven wrong. I do rip mids at full power if i need d. 323' flat land Fuse with 3' fade is nice I need to wash my hands often at work so i have legendarily slick skin and z is out. Opto is borderline now and no joy in the winter. Which is why i suffer from too much fade with flx Buzzes. And am ok with soft x Banger gt.

I own a Super Stingray and King Cobra and both of which compete against the Buzzzes as well. SS vs SS And Champ is not good this time of the year either.

If the Buzzz SS was made in FLX i would have jumped on them many winters ago.

 

[money 21]

give a m ibex a try flies similar to a buzz ss and very grippy.

Mark points out one of the big difference between BH and FH. i throw both and have a much harder time throwing mids with power FH it is easier to take a little off a fairway driver then power up a mid FH IMHO.

 

[JR]

I have scrubbed and used citrus wash on mine and it is just too damn hard and slick. That happened when it was new and Vibram materials get slicker as they dry in a year. So no joy and mine is overstable at least some. Each one i have fondled was hard and slick and they all probably came from the initial run. I bought mine when it was released. Thanks for the suggestion though.

 

[money 21]

ln the medium rubber? the firm is hard and kinda slick but the medium i throw are grippy and can almost fold in half.

 

[JR]

I dug mine up. It says 178m sharpied on the bottom. I love how the top of the flight is a little rough making it grippier. The good thing is that it has not become slicker when it was new unlike some putters i have from Vibram. The bad thing is that is as hard and semi slick as when it was new and while not as slick as z or champ it still is not as grippy as pro or soft x for example. I bought mine i think about one month after release and each of the discs that were labeled medium in the shop were as slick. I have a hard Obex and it is slicker, smoother and harder but by much. Now i am intriqued about current m Ibexes. They just have competition now for tacky straight foul weather mids with the releade of xt Rocs and Atlases.

Edit: I went to a field and threw it lefty, because my proper arm is out again. I had my strength tested last week and lefty i squeezed with the whole hand worth 36 kilos. Which is rubbish so i have no place loafing with squeezing. And a hard squeeze tenses up my arm so much that i lose distance and control. No arm tension grip was so light that i got slips too often with a two and three fingered grip. Full power grip tenses up my arm just from gripping not squeezing the disc. So i need to squeeze some and hope to avoid slips. I am too new at throwing with the off arm that a pinch in the end has not come up yet on the list of things to try. I only got to shuffle two step throw. Anything more and i lose arm snap repeatability. Or any consistency actually.

I bent the disc and it did not feel that violent getting the edges two inches from each other. Getting them to touch is easy, but i did not wa t to stress the disc. This all tells of how low grip power and slick my skin is. That grip test is working life related and the scale is 1-5 and the 1 result as a condition class for the left arm i got is the poorest grr. I only have class 2 righty. Meh.

 

[money 21]

the xlg aka the glow vibram is the grippest IMHO but i have never tinkered with the soft. i had tho throw lefty for a while a couple years back i threw a stratus a lot.