Major Violation?

[DavidSauls]

Thanks to Chuck & Robert, for providing the other side of the story here.

 

[DavidSauls]

On the subject of lunches, I've gone to posting the actual Round 2 time on a sign so there's no mistake. Even when I'm TD and people ask me what time is Round 2, I tell them to look at the sign.

 

[topdog]

On the subject of lunches, I've gone to posting the actual Round 2 time on a sign so there's no mistake. Even when I'm TD and people ask me what time is Round 2, I tell them to look at the sign.

:thmbup: The way it should be.

 

[topdog]

Wrong. Look at my posts. I did not name the td, tournament, course or anything of the such. I was talking about something that happened to me. I never had any intention of bashing anybody. Read my posts.

I never said you named the TD or the tournament or the course those dont matter. I never said you bashed the TD. You clearly stated that it was NO BIG DEAL TO YOU cause you won which is wrong it should have been a big deal to you no matter what. You then come on DGCR and say a TD had a major violation. How am I wrong.

 

[grodney]

Played in a 2 round tournament today. Upon starting the second one of the players on the card was nowhere to be found. This was top card in my division. We waited as long as possible but he didnt show. We tee'd off and finished the first hole and asked the TD what to do. He said to give him 3 strokes over par on each hole until he shows up. Everything was par 3 so he kept getting 6"s. 4 holes in we he runs up and we tell him sorry but we had to give him a six on each hole. He says "I'll see you guys later" and walks off. 2 holes later he catches us and says the TD said he could make up the holes he missed after we finished. He shot very well and finished 2nd overall. No big deal to me as I finished 1st but the more I think about it the more wrong I think it was. The 4 holes he took 6"s on he got deuces on them. Can the TD make a call like that?

This makes my math hurt.

 

[Emoney]

It was a sanctioned event. And I know there is a rule bout strokes for each hole that is missed. I actually thought it was straights 7's but par+4 sounds right. BTW it did not affect my outcome but he did finish second but wouldnt have eve cashed out if those strokes are added back in.

wow so wrong in so many ways, i would have met him and the td in the parking lot if i got pushed out of cash

 

[Royal Hill]

On the subject of lunches, I've gone to posting the actual Round 2 time on a sign so there's no mistake. Even when I'm TD and people ask me what time is Round 2, I tell them to look at the sign.

Indeed. posting a real time on a whiteboard is really good service. You can't get everyone covered by yelling loudly a time.

Plus, locally, we've taken a suggestion I've seen on this forum from C Kennedy as to the value in having a clock hanging at tourney central that is the "official clock" IKEA clock, still in the cardboard surround, strung up on a rope!

 

[Emoney]

wow so wrong in so many ways, i would have met him and the td in the parking lot if i got pushed out of cash

my bad, just read the second half of the thread! i have no clue how this wasnt brought up until today, i would have talked to the td immediately after the round was over to clarify

 

[DavidSauls]

Indeed. posting a real time on a whiteboard is really good service. You can't get everyone covered by yelling loudly a time.

Plus, locally, we've taken a suggestion I've seen on this forum from C Kennedy as to the value in having a clock hanging at tourney central that is the "official clock" IKEA clock, still in the cardboard surround, strung up on a rope!

The real motivation for posting times was so a dozen different people don't walk up and ask. Or worse---players don't ask the TD but ask someone else they see on the course, who go his information from yet another player, and inevitably somebody gets it wrong.

The "hour from the last card" is a good rule of thumb, but I remember an event where a rain delay in the first round meant that lunch had to be shortened, to finish the 2nd round with daylight. A few players were angry because they assumed they had a full hour, and wound up with par+4s. If the TD had posted the time for all to see, and that posting was the only thing that was official, it would have made a big difference.

 

[rd.bittle]

Definitely a major violation. You should have contacted the TD and asked him about it, though.

However, it makes for a thread that everyone will have an opinion on. :hfive:

 

[gcanter2376]

This makes my math hurt.

Obviousely i typed that to quickly. He came up on us after 2 holes and left and then came back 2 more holes later so he missed 4 holez.

 

[rd.bittle]

I was made aware of this post and felt it necessary to reply due to the unusual circumstances. I made an error on the second round start time by cutting lunch 10 minutes short. I did tell them that they could make up 2 holes missed (not 4) due to the fact that the error was mine that they started late. In hind site I should have addressed each card in effect personally to tell them the reason behind my decision.

On another note, if anyone feels that they were slighted in the payout due to this let me know and we will work things out.

Sorry for the confusion, but I felt it was the fair call to make based on the fact that I made the error that caused the players to be late, not them.

Any complaints? Let 'em fly, I can take it.

And definitely a :thmbup: for Chuck checking in to catch the bullets. Glad to see a man step up and claim responsibility. I disagree with your call, but, bravo for facing the music.

 

[joshmo65]

On the subject of lunches, I've gone to posting the actual Round 2 time on a sign so there's no mistake. Even when I'm TD and people ask me what time is Round 2, I tell them to look at the sign.

This past weekend, the sign said 3:30 at a tourney I was at. I was heading back to the hotel to take a nap, so I double checked with the TD who said 3:00. Good thing I double checked as he double checked the sign and made the change.

 

[DavidSauls]

This past weekend, the sign said 3:30 at a tourney I was at. I was heading back to the hotel to take a nap, so I double checked with the TD who said 3:00. Good thing I double checked as he double checked the sign and made the change.

A reminder of the adage that no system is foolproof, because fools are so ingenius.

 

[CaptainAnhyzer]

I notify everyone during the PRE-tourney meeting that I'll hit the horn when the last card comes in and you'll have 45 minutes from that to return to tourney central BEFORE heading out to your 2nd round hole.

 

[Dave242]

Obviousely i typed that to quickly. He came up on us after 2 holes and left and then came back 2 more holes later so he missed 4 holez.

I was thinking that this should probably constitute his withdrawal from the event (showing up and then leaving intentionally). But......after reading the rules I am not sure (seems doubtful):

803.03.G.1.D.3 - Failure To Hole Out.
The player has teed off on a hole without having holed out on the previous hole. The score for the misplayed hole shall be the number of throws made, plus one for holing out, plus two penalty throws for the misplay. The player must not actually hole out on the previous hole. Intentionally failing to hole out constitutes withdrawal from competition.

Does the last sentence (in red) stand on its own or is its prerequisite the first sentence (having to have teed off to make the rule applicable)?

I'm not on a witch hunt....just trying to understand the rules.

 

[JC17393]

I was thinking that this should probably constitute his withdrawal from the event (showing up and then leaving intentionally). But......after reading the rules I am not sure (seems doubtful):

803.03.G.1.D.3 - Failure To Hole Out.
The player has teed off on a hole without having holed out on the previous hole. The score for the misplayed hole shall be the number of throws made, plus one for holing out, plus two penalty throws for the misplay. The player must not actually hole out on the previous hole. Intentionally failing to hole out constitutes withdrawal from competition.

Does the last sentence (in red) stand on its own or is its prerequisite the first sentence (having to have teed off to make the rule applicable)?

I'm not on a witch hunt....just trying to understand the rules.

I think you have to have teed off to not hole out.

This is just an awkward situation all around. Kudos to the TD for popping into the thread and explaining what happened. I think given the circumstances (starting the round earlier than announced), he made the right call to allow for the replay of the first two holes that the player missed. Beyond that, the players (both the late individual and his playing group) really messed up on a couple different counts.

1) The late player should have just started playing after arriving late rather than seeking out the TD in a huff. He could have argued his case for replaying the missed holes after the fact, and then the number of missed holes wouldn't have been in question. (the discrepancy between what the TD said was to be replayed and what apparently was replayed is most bothersome)

2) The other players in the group, including the OP, should have been more on the ball knowing the rules themselves, or at least not been so passive about things. What happened affected more than just the 3-4 players in the group, it affected the whole division of players. This is one of the responsibilities that all players often fail to realize...they're not just accountable to themselves when they choose to overlook a rules issue, they're accountable to all their fellow competitors as well. Deciding to overlook a violation or not participate in a group discussion/decision because "it doesn't affect me directly" or "it doesn't bother me that something wasn't done correctly" is failing the rest of the competitors in the division.

 

[Dave242]

I think you have to have teed off to not hole out.

That might be right. I need to spend some time getting to know the new rule book....they have made a bunch of modifications - some very cosmetic, but some pretty significant.

I cannot find in the 2013 rules where it talks about withdrawing due to walking off. In literally 5 seconds I found this in the 2007 rulebook (search for "withdraw" in the .pdf rule book):
803.13.A.3 - Intentionally failing to hole out (emergency, injury, plane flight, etc.) constitutes withdrawal from competition. The player shall be withdrawn from competition and officially listed as "Did Not Finish" on the scorecard and in the event results.

(and from the definitions there is no direct presupposition that the player had teed....just that the player was there to play the hole: Holed-Out: A term used to signify completion of a hole. A player has "holedout" after the removal of the at rest disc from the chains or entrapment area of a disc entrapment device or after striking the marked area of the designated object target.

It seems that in the new rules you can decide to skip a hole and take par + 4 and then start playing again on the next hole. That could come in very handy if you really needed to take a dump (it was not allowed in the old rules to leave for more than your 30 seconds).....or if you really felt like you might do no better than par+4 on a given hole.

(I realize that this is an aside from the exact scenario in this thread).

 

[spikodelhyzer]

It was probably no big deal to the OP and the rest of the card b/c the One Day Thang is a pretty laid back tourney.

 

[JC17393]

That might be right. I need to spend some time getting to know the new rule book....they have made a bunch of modifications - some very cosmetic, but some pretty significant.

I cannot find in the 2013 rules where it talks about withdrawing due to walking off. In literally 5 seconds I found this in the 2007 rulebook (search for "withdraw" in the .pdf rule book):
803.13.A.3 - Intentionally failing to hole out (emergency, injury, plane flight, etc.) constitutes withdrawal from competition. The player shall be withdrawn from competition and officially listed as "Did Not Finish" on the scorecard and in the event results.

(and from the definitions there is no direct presupposition that the player had teed....just that the player was there to play the hole: Holed-Out: A term used to signify completion of a hole. A player has "holedout" after the removal of the at rest disc from the chains or entrapment area of a disc entrapment device or after striking the marked area of the designated object target.

I think in general, you have to have begun at least one hole in order to differentiate between being late (par + 4) and failing to hole out (DNF). So the player in the OP situation had yet to throw a shot when he caught up to his group after two missed holes then left to find the TD causing him to miss another two holes. So they were all missed holes to begin the round, IMO. No chance of his leaving the group constituting a withdrawal.

It seems that in the new rules you can decide to skip a hole and take par + 4 and then start playing again on the next hole. That could come in very handy if you really needed to take a dump (it was not allowed in the old rules to leave for more than your 30 seconds).....or if you really felt like you might do no better than par+4 on a given hole.

(I realize that this is an aside from the exact scenario in this thread).

I would think that in the latter situation (feeling you couldn't do better than par+4 on a hole) would be grounds for disqualification for circumventing the rules of play. I think an emergency (a restroom run could qualify as one) is one thing, and surely the reason the rule was implemented, but intentionally skipping a hole to presumably save strokes is questionable.

Of course, the astute and on the ball TD will recognize the likely holes for high scores and par them accordingly rather than going with the old school "everything's a 3" mentality. Having to swallow a 9 instead of a 7 might make a rule-bender think twice about skipping a hole. I usually go with the recreational course pars at my tournaments (SSA of 50 but a rec par of 70). No shenanigans and reinforces the "par+4" rather than erroneous "auto 7s" interpretation of the rule.