Mandos without drop zones

[bombmk]

Not PDGA Event, but 2006 rules book was the change - not 2002.


In my opinion the new change for 2013 is bad as it just makes for lazy TD's -you should ALWAYS have to specify a drop zone even it is the tee pad.

I do believe they are imploring TDs to do that.
But the rulebook has to cover the situation where he has not.

 

[Cgkdisc]

Not PDGA Event, but 2006 rules book was the change - not 2002.

In my opinion the new change for 2013 is bad as it just makes for lazy TD's -you should ALWAYS have to specify a drop zone even it is the tee pad.

Sorry Keith, it was 2002. I helped instigate that change from unwinding to drop zones and also did the Rulebook change chart showing when various rules changed over the years: PDGA Rules Change History

 

[ferretdance03]

TD said we had to do the rewind. re-throwing was not an option.

You always have the option of a rethrow- Previously called the "Unplayable Lie" rule, now it's just an Optional Rethrow, with a stroke penalty. Doesn't matter where the disc ended up, you can take a stroke and try again at any time.

 

[ferretdance03]

803.02 in the new rules. Took me a minute to find it online since the format changed.

 

[Tiny]

"Safety" mandos are bad mandos

I disagree with this. My home course runs along a neighborhood on a couple holes, without the mando in play, people will try shots that aren't exactly neighborhood friendly. Though it also stipulates to bad players on a difficult hole. Could be bad course design, though experienced players can do exactly what is needed and it was a sweet hole. Now it has been changed to save the course lol.

I like the safety mandos because it's not just to change the hole, but it's a warning to disc golfers about where they are throwing if you are new to the course.

 

[mashnut]

That's exactly the point though. New disc golfers have very little control, so a mando does very little to stop the errant shot from going through a neighbor's window or into a busy street. On top of that, the rec level golfer who thinks he's awesome is going to ignore the mando and take the aersome hyzer route over someone's backyard You can be away with it more on a temporary tournament course where the level of play is generally higher, but on a course with a wide variety of skill levels it really doesn't protect anything.

 

[jobwilson]

I like how people who are not course designers (presumably) are arguing with Chuck Kennedy about course design. That's like arguing with Dickens about novels.
Chuck and Mashnut are 100% correct regarding safety mandos.

 

[keith johnson]

Sorry Keith, it was 2002. I helped instigate that change from unwinding to drop zones and also did the Rulebook change chart showing when various rules changed over the years: PDGA Rules Change History

You are right - I just remembered arguing with the Cali guy in KC at 2009 Worlds as he was still using the old rule book - (which would have been 2002) as current one then was 2006 - sorry that's why 2006 stuck in my head - I spent 10 holes trying to recover from the thorn in my nose causing me to bleed non-stop after crossing the creek which the side wall collapsed stabbing me with a 3 inch thorn in my nose a few inches from my eye to show him the current rulebook because he was arguing from across the fairway and creek that he could "unwind". :wall::wall:

Still the only disc golfer in 17+ years of Golf I ever wished that would stop playing competitive Events so as not to cause others to play with "years old rules".

Was it actually written in the 2002 rule book or "added" later as so many rules are nowadays? - Because he definately showed me the "unwinding" rule in his rule book.

 

[aardvarkious]

I like how people who are not course designers (presumably) are arguing with Chuck Kennedy about course design. That's like arguing with Dickens about novels.
Chuck and Mashnut are 100% correct regarding safety mandos.

I don't know if they are arguing so much as not understanding. I could be wrong, but I believe they mean safety mandos are bad because the hole should just be scrapped altogether (and no hole means no mando). If you are going to put in the hole anyways, they may say you are a doing something dumb, but would presumably agree that putting in the mando is better than nothing.

 

[BionicRib]

That's exactly the point though. New disc golfers have very little control, so a mando does very little to stop the errant shot from going through a neighbor's window or into a busy street. On top of that, the rec level golfer who thinks he's awesome is going to ignore the mando and take the aersome hyzer route over someone's backyard You can be away with it more on a temporary tournament course where the level of play is generally higher, but on a course with a wide variety of skill levels it really doesn't protect anything.

Not to mention the fact that most people the fact that A lot (and it would be nice to know the exact percentage, I would put it at 60%) of disc golfers don't even know what a mando is. And those guys are typically the ones you worry about when there is a potential safety issue

 

[JC17393]

Not to mention the fact that most people the fact that A lot (and it would be nice to know the exact percentage, I would put it at 60%) of disc golfers don't even know what a mando is. And those guys are typically the ones you worry about when there is a potential safety issue

I'd put it at higher than 60%, at least based on local play here. My home course has tee signs with maps that specifically outline OB (there's lots of it, but no mandos), including descriptions of how to play particular OBs (couple holes with drop zone options, etc). The scorecards, which nearly every group takes with them when they play, not only list all the OB, but the rules on how to play OB is printed on them as well. We also have rulebooks for sale and free handouts highlighting some of the key rules available in the pro shop.

Given all that information, pretty much every player ignores the OB areas and even when they don't, such as the one water hazard, they don't take penalties nor do they play from the drop zone or last point in-bounds. The only ones who do are the ones who have played a league or tournament at least once, which I would count as maybe 10% of the total players that come through. I've talked to more than one player who chooses not to play leagues/tournaments specifically because they'd have to play the OBs properly and take penalties...they know what OB is and they still choose to ignore the markers and play how they want. Mandos would surely be treated the same way.

So I agree that so-called "safety" mandos are not good from the standpoint that if one is seen as necessary, the hole is badly designed in the first place. In my opinion, the best and only kind of mandos I like to see are the ones for which a player has to more or less deliberately try to miss it or make a really really really poor throw in order to miss it. If it's a difficult mando to make, it's a bad mando IMO.

 

[denny ritner]

"Safety" mandos are bad mandos in the first place and the old unwinding rule made them worse. No mando should ever be created for safety reasons. If a bad throw from a location is a safety problem, a mando will not make it safer.

I agree.

 

[bombmk]

That's exactly the point though. New disc golfers have very little control, so a mando does very little to stop the errant shot from going through a neighbor's window or into a busy street. On top of that, the rec level golfer who thinks he's awesome is going to ignore the mando and take the aersome hyzer route over someone's backyard You can be away with it more on a temporary tournament course where the level of play is generally higher, but on a course with a wide variety of skill levels it really doesn't protect anything.

It stops them from taking the next shot from the neighbours living room or from the busy street - ending up even further away. And it stops them from deliberately aiming for those areas.

Assuming they play with the mando of course.

If they don't its on them though - and should an insurance case arise it might very well be a factor if they followed directions or not. And potentially important when the people responsible for the course has to deal with the authorities.

A mando might not protect the immediate area - but it can direct play away from "secondary" areas - and as such be considered a safety mando and a reasonable one at that. Should it be considered bulletproof glass? No. But is it still a practical thing to use in some cases. Definately.

Seeing as we are talking public parks mostly, we can't really do anything about those who do not follow the rules - mandos or no mandos.

 

[denny ritner]

I like how people who are not course designers (presumably) are arguing with Chuck Kennedy about course design. That's like arguing with Dickens about novels.
Chuck and Mashnut are 100% correct regarding safety mandos.

 

[DavidSauls]

I'm not a fan of mandos in any case, but would stop short of a blanket statement on "safety" mandos.

I can think of one, the purpose of which is to keep big-arm players from taking a wild and unusual hyzer route over another fairway. It's not a route the casual players will even consider, and at any rate it's only disc golfers that the mando's protecting, not a playground.

I can think of another that was put in after a large tree fell and opened up a new hyzer route over a walkway. There wasn't an option to move the tee or basket.....the mando would at least greatly reduce the number of those dangerous shots that are thrown.

 

[Captain Bad]

You always have the option of a rethrow- Previously called the "Unplayable Lie" rule, now it's just an Optional Rethrow, with a stroke penalty. Doesn't matter where the disc ended up, you can take a stroke and try again at any time.

This was not a PDGA-sanctioned event, so the Official Rules are merely suggestions. If the TD declared that a missed mando must be unwound, with no option to re-throw, then that's what you have to do.

 

[bombmk]

This was not a PDGA-sanctioned event, so the Official Rules are merely suggestions. If the TD declared that a missed mando must be unwound, with no option to re-throw, then that's what you have to do.

"Merely suggestions" holds up just until I turn in an all ace scorecard - before touching a disc - as per my own suggestions.

Saying that you have to unwind on a mando does not negate the general optional rethrow rule - unless specifically stated so.

And if it was stated, my disc might become lost pretty quickly. And found shortly after a rethrow.

 

[mashnut]

It stops them from taking the next shot from the neighbours living room or from the busy street - ending up even further away. And it stops them from deliberately aiming for those areas.

Assuming they play with the mando of course.

If they don't its on them though - and should an insurance case arise it might very well be a factor if they followed directions or not. And potentially important when the people responsible for the course has to deal with the authorities.

A mando might not protect the immediate area - but it can direct play away from "secondary" areas - and as such be considered a safety mando and a reasonable one at that. Should it be considered bulletproof glass? No. But is it still a practical thing to use in some cases. Definately.

Seeing as we are talking public parks mostly, we can't really do anything about those who do not follow the rules - mandos or no mandos.

It doesn't stop them from taking the next shot from someone's backyard though. If they're the type who's likely to miss the mando, they're also probably the type who is just going to ignore it and play from where they landed. Your last sentence is an excellent point, and one of the best arguments for not using mandos or ob to keep disc golfers out of an area, you can't police it and it just won't stop the majority of players from ignoring it.