Maxing out @ 300ft...

[jw34]

This is an excellent thread, thanks to all who have given info.
Since there was mention of using a towel, I dug up this video from 08. I shot it at a clinic that was put on a day before a tournament. Dave Feldberg was the main presenter and used a towel to make a couple of points. This video is of Barry Schultz using it. It's short, but has a nice snap!
http://tinyurl.com/y8wwn5g

 

[JR]

thanks guys

good copy edit there bcsst26. hadn't seen you around a lot lately but I do remember that you are a big student of form also.

I think Blake's phone conversations are worth it. now I need to remember everything he told me about putting so I can add that to the short arm apex pitch putting.

I think I also need to make a short comic about throwing a little red wagon off a cliff.

Yeah I have been digging this thread. The problem is I haven't thrown probably since Nov. Between getting dark to early,kids, and the never ending snow I haven't made it out. I still read everything and try the indoor stuff but without actually throwing I really do not have many comments. This is some of the best discussion though that I have seen for some time. Hopefully this long layoff will help me forget strong arming it and change things right this time.

Here is a quick question. I think I have it down how to stop the elbow and have your arm chop. My question is that when this chopping starts I feel like my wrist opens up to quick. Of course no throwing to verify anything but do you guys concentrate on keeping your hand on the opposite side of the disc or do you just let it happen.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l64-O6t9s_c Look at 3:03 at Birgitta Lagerholm for elbow stop and disc action.

I try to accelerate late enough and gradually increase the rate of acceleration of the arm to bend the wrist back as far as possible and holding on for dear life to try to allow the disc to pivot as much as possible in the thumb lock. While doing max D drives. I'm not as demanding on approach drives. Fewer things to go wrong is my philosophy there.

 

[Rickg1]

Since there was mention of using a towel, I dug up this video from 08. I shot it at a clinic that was put on a day before a tournament. Dave Feldberg was the main presenter and used a towel to make a couple of points. This video is of Barry Schultz using it. It's short, but has a nice snap!
http://tinyurl.com/y8wwn5g

I "thougt" I was doing this right until I saw this video. Back to trying to get the towel to snap like Barry.
Thanks for posting it.

 

[superdrive]

It's freezing outside so I've been practicing with a towel. Instead of woooossssshhhh or snap I get POW!!!!!!! and I'm not sure if this is what should happen. It just gets louder if I use heavier ball golf towel. This started to happen a little after I started to pull. Towel feels very heavy at the ''hit'' or where it should happen. Kind of ''pulls'' my hand

Could this be snap or is it something else? That sound is so loud I can't practice inside anymore.

Also things are starting to feel natural. After 2 weeks more practice it might be harder to fix.

EDIT: I'm doing something very wrong. Back to square one...

 

[doublej]

I also have a question about the towel snap....i'm getting the popping sound, and like the post above, the towel feels heavy at the pop. But to do this i am using a lot of wrist....way more than i normally would when i throw. Am i doing the towel drill wrong or am i realizing that i need more wrist in my throw?

 

[Blake_T1]

But to do this i am using a lot of wrist....way more than i normally would when i throw. Am i doing the towel drill wrong or am i realizing that i need more wrist in my throw?

assuming that things are going correctly, you are probably realizing that you need more wrist in your throw.

 

[jubuttib]

Just came to say thanks. I started disc golf last year (though been throwing plastic all my life) and quickly found myself maxing out at ~280 feet. Then came winter and I found DGR and especially this thread.

Now I have no trouble throwing around 330, while wearing a thick jacket and trousers, snowboarding boots (lots of snow, someone's gotta go in there to find those discs!) and gloves (it's usually been around 5 degrees Fahrenheit when I've been out throwing, tried throwing barehanded but it wasn't working. The gloves have caused a lot of bad releases) and no good footing (I've slipped and pulled a muscle or two several times while throwing).

Once I accidentally threw around 220 feet just trying to feel how my shoulders should pause and didn't grip the disc properly. Damn thing just blasted out of my hand, good thing too since now I have a fair idea how it should feel when I do it right.

My consistency and accuracy has gone way up. I've also been working on hyzerflips a bit, it's amazing to see a disc go straight as an arrow for almost all of it's flight. I could sometimes manage this by accident, probably due to OAT. Now I can count on it a little bit at least, considering I've only had a month or so of practice, maybe twice a week at best.

Also been training forehand technique with an Ultimate lid, and with some constructive criticism from JR (many thanks to you) I've gotten my forehand to a point where it's actually usable on a course. I have some videos on Youtube showing what I started with, especially one film that's just slow motion footage. I use the same nick here and there so it won't be hard to find. Mind you if you decide to watch them, my form looks nothing like it did back in those videos. =)

But yeah, thanks again ya'll for everything you've written, this thread is pure gold.

 

[JR]

You're welcome. It seems that I'm able to help people at least in English and Finnish with tangible results. Thanks jubuttib for doubling my language score I'm not sure if my German advice worked for that German guy last year. Mainly because I advised where to see long bombers in Germany and for the benefit of others form comments were in English and I didn't hear back from him. My German is lacking probably when it comes to describing motions anyway. I think I might pull off Swedish too.

 

[ReDisculous]

Man, look at how low Jesper's pull is in the video JR posted. You can see his wrist bend when the elbow gets forward and everything. He really gets over the disc, does that help with all this elbow stopping stuff?

On a side note I had my first 350 ft throw at my first tourney this past weekend, I can't wait until this summer so I can really get this stuff ingrained into my muscle memory.

 

[gretagun]

I've been re-reading this thread, and I got stumped on the information that I bolded below. When Blake was discussing full reachback vs bent elbow in this thread, he mentioned the angle between the upper arm and shoulder decreases at the beginning (for full reachback), and this is also evident in the drawing.
In the diagram quote, he mentions that the thrower is letting the arm lag, which is causing this angle between the upper arm and shoulder to decrease. Is this a different angle he is referring to? This sounds contradictory to me, but I think he is talking about two different things. Can anyone clarify this form me?

the main differentiation between reach back throwers and bent elbow throwers (even those that use some reach back) is this:
-with a reach back throw the angle formed between the upper arm and the shoulder/chest collapses at the start of rotation and extends entering the power zone.
-with a bent elbow throw the angle formed between the upper arm and the shoulder/chest is constant at the start of rotation and doesn't extend until well into the power zone.

This is old, and I've posted it a few times, but I think so far all the illustrations/descriptions have skipped a step, or at least haven't really covered body positions, so I thought it was relevant.

during the first rotation, make sure the upper arm moves WITH the shoulder. it sounds like you are letting it lag behind which causes a narrowing of the angle between the shoulder and upper arm. you want to guide the disc with your arm. the arm shouldn't be tense, but it shouldn't be absolutely limp either.

my elite art skills diagramming the 3 stages of the throw across 4 panels.

the way you are throwing skips panel #3.

 

[Blake_T1]

I've been re-reading this thread, and I got stumped on the information that I bolded below. When Blake was discussing full reachback vs bent elbow in this thread, he mentioned the angle between the upper arm and shoulder decreases at the beginning (for full reachback), and this is also evident in the drawing.
In the diagram quote, he mentions that the thrower is letting the arm lag, which is causing this angle between the upper arm and shoulder to decrease. Is this a different angle he is referring to? This sounds contradictory to me, but I think he is talking about two different things. Can anyone clarify this form me?

that diagram shows the "lag" (and resulting decrease in the angle) with a reach back throw. most bent elbow throwers don't have this same behavior happening. it's not much different than the diagram, but basically the initial angle between the upper arm and shoulders between frames 1 and 2 stays relatively static. this makes it easier to get the elbow forward.

it's possible to throw far using either technique if you use the correct timing. the reason bent elbow comes up so often is more of a vehicle to learning the correct timing.

 

[gretagun]

^Perfect! Thanks for the clarification, that makes sense.

 

[jubuttib]

I just got some spikes for my shoes and for the first time since I started working on my form I've had semi decent footing. I was struggling to hit 300' last summer. Today I broke 360 many times and unless the drive was a complete failure it was usually around 340-350 feet. My longest with an Echo Katana was around 380'. In the snow, in clothes I'd never even think of wearing during playing in the summer, with gloves on, with only about a month's worth of work. I have found that the "Swedish" style suits me better (or at least the "vertical shoulders" part), I get the same power with less effort, better timing and less OAT. I'll probably have to adjust a bit when summer comes, but still. I just want to say THANK YOU THANK YOU THANK YOU THANK YOU THANK YOU!

 

[JR]

Congratulations! Wow that's a lot in these conditions. It shows that you've thrown all your life.

 

[ReDisculous]

1-> 3 all of the upper body movement is incidental or automatic resulting from the hip/foot movement this is also the start of the weight transfer

This is where I fail. I have a hard time getting my shoulders to turn that 1st 90 degrees without actively turning them. Do I just need to be more active with my lower body or what? Any tips/comments/thoughts on this?

I'm pretty sure that the way I am turning my shoulders is preventing me from getting a good whip with the arm.

 

[scoopa]

I think of that motion as moving my elbow forward as it bends. It starts as a reach back. Then I turn my hips. As I turn my hips I start to bend my arm. I continue pushing my elbow further out. Finally there is a slight pause THEN you explode out and rotate. Really at this point you don't have much choice in exploding out. As someone said it is a release.

From my experience in frame 1 -3 you are moving forward - not so much rotating. 1- 3 is all about getting into the power zone aka the right pec position.

EDIT: Got carried away talking. Yes, what you are describing sounds like you are coming around too fast with the shoulder and you probably aren't getting the forearm stop + sling out\whip-action

 

[black udder]

Try keeping your back foot down until the disc is coming out or away from you. It'll help keep your shoulders from turning too fast. You can add power as you feel better with the motion. If you do it too fast, too soon, you risk hyper extending the elbow.

 

[Blake_T1]

This is where I fail. I have a hard time getting my shoulders to turn that 1st 90 degrees without actively turning them. Do I just need to be more active with my lower body or what? Any tips/comments/thoughts on this?

focus on the position of the disc and it should happen on its own.

 

[black udder]

Couple good shots of Feldberg from the Memorial that Blink posted:

http://www.facebook.com/photo.php?pid=5583589&id=535356489
http://www.facebook.com/photo.php?pid=5583515&id=535356489

Notice where the disc is, where his feet are and where his shoulders are at this point in the throw.

Blink implied he might be powering down, but this is kinda where you wanna be.

 

[jubuttib]

Notice where the disc is, where his feet are and where his shoulders are at this point in the throw. ... but this is kinda where you wanna be.

QFT. I tried lowering my arm to that level and instantly started to feel the elbow chop and overall snap better. I can now throw 350' with almost zero effort and out of the about 30 throws I had time to throw before the parking lot lights turned off only 2 didn't go exactly where I wanted them to go (and they were only about 15' feet or so off the line (@ 330' distance). Also made it really easy to hit the nose down angle better.

I'd been having trouble with consistency, accuracy, OAT (which I really noticed only now that it was eliminated) and keeping the nose down (and not hitting the ground 60' in front of me if I could keep it down) but on a good roll was hitting 340-350'. That demanded a lot of effort though. Just this little fix made everything better.

I'm not saying that it'll stay this good all the time, but I did test it again later with a few throws down the street and across one road (very late in the evening and with a spotter of course, no cars parked on the street, only one or two buildings) that's uphill and still hit 315' consistently (with a Groove none the less, a disc I don't mind losing). It all just feels so... easy now.