Missed Tee Time Question

[littlej13]

So this was a very confusing situation that occurred in a tournament this weekend, and I'm curious to see how other people would have handled it.

After round 1, Player A and I decide to eat a quick lunch and then go look for his disc that went into the water in the first round. The TD announces a 1:20 start time (last card finished at 12:05), we eat quickly and head out to find the disc and practice a few holes. Unknowingly to either of us, the tee time was changed to 1:00 shortly after we left. We did not realize this until 2 minutes was called and we were 6 holes away from our starting hole.

We both start sprinting to the hole. I make it onto the fairway when start is called, but Player A has a cart and is nowhere close. When I get up to the tee we do what we should. Player B who is top of the card throws. We give player A 30 seconds before calling it and going to the third person who would be me. After I throw and the fourth person on the card throws, Player A arrives running towards us. It's here where we have no idea what to do. Rule 1.05E states that he should receive a par +4 since he missed his tee time. He is adamant against this as he was not responsible for missing the tee time. There's a lot of discussion back and forth before we decide to let him throw the hole under a provisional where he takes a 2. (Though I'm not sure a provisional should even be allowed in this situation). We take it to the TD immediately after who let's Player A keep the 2. Player A goes on to win the tournament by 2 strokes.

So 2 questions.
A) What should have we done in this situation?

B) Hypothetically, what would happen if I did not run ahead of Player A and we were both late to the hole. Neither of the other 2 players could tee at that point since you need at least 3 on a card and they would presumably be waiting on another group to attach to. So once we show up, would we just throw in order like normal. Or would Player A and I just have to both take par +4 while being witnesses for the other players scores on that first hole? Assume the mis-announced tee time didn't occur for this situation.

 

[cheesethin]

A) Sounds to me like what you did was spot on. Provisionals are used for one of two reasons. Either to save time (under certain conditions), or

To appeal a ruling when there are different resulting lies. A set of provisional throws may be taken to complete a hole as part of an appeal when a player in the group disagrees with a group decision and an Official is not readily available

B) Ah well in this situation you...mumble mumble...mumble.

 

[Doofenshmirtz]

A) It sounds like pretty much everyone handled that particular situation correctly, except the TD who should have never changed the tee time once it was announced.

B) You and the other player get the penalty and serve as witnesses. But see A. This is a TD created mess.

 

[araytx]

A) It sounds like pretty much everyone handled that particular situation correctly, except the TD who should have never changed to an EARLIER tee time once it was announced.

B) You and the other player get the penalty and serve as witnesses. But see A. This is a TD created mess.

FTFY. I mean had he changed it to 1:30, that would have been OK, right?

 

[brutalbrutus]

So this was a very confusing situation that occurred in a tournament this weekend, and I'm curious to see how other people would have handled it.

After round 1, Player A and I decide to eat a quick lunch and then go look for his disc that went into the water in the first round. The TD announces a 1:20 start time (last card finished at 12:05), we eat quickly and head out to find the disc and practice a few holes. Unknowingly to either of us, the tee time was changed to 1:00 shortly after we left. We did not realize this until 2 minutes was called and we were 6 holes away from our starting hole.

We both start sprinting to the hole. I make it onto the fairway when start is called, but Player A has a cart and is nowhere close. When I get up to the tee we do what we should. Player B who is top of the card throws. We give player A 30 seconds before calling it and going to the third person who would be me. After I throw and the fourth person on the card throws, Player A arrives running towards us. It's here where we have no idea what to do. Rule 1.05E states that he should receive a par +4 since he missed his tee time. He is adamant against this as he was not responsible for missing the tee time. There's a lot of discussion back and forth before we decide to let him throw the hole under a provisional where he takes a 2. (Though I'm not sure a provisional should even be allowed in this situation). We take it to the TD immediately after who let's Player A keep the 2. Player A goes on to win the tournament by 2 strokes.

So 2 questions.
A) What should have we done in this situation?

B) Hypothetically, what would happen if I did not run ahead of Player A and we were both late to the hole. Neither of the other 2 players could tee at that point since you need at least 3 on a card and they would presumably be waiting on another group to attach to. So once we show up, would we just throw in order like normal. Or would Player A and I just have to both take par +4 while being witnesses for the other players scores on that first hole? Assume the mis-announced tee time didn't occur for this situation.

It would come down to these two bolded sentences in my opinion. How close to the teepad was he when the last player exited the teeing area?

Late-arriving players, for either Shotgun or Tee Time rounds, are responsible for checking with the TD, Tournament Central, or the Tee Time Starter to learn their correct starting group and are solely responsible for starting play with that playing group or the group created by the TD due to the player's absence. The player will receive the par plus four score for each hole that the playing group has either completed or finished teeing on. Playing with any other group constitutes an attempt to gain a competitive advantage and is a disqualification.

If he was close enough to walk up and throw before another 30sec was counted, I think he should be good because you had not finished teeing off.

 

[krupicka]

If he was close enough to walk up and throw before another 30sec was counted, I think he should be good because you had not finished teeing off.

It's 30 seconds for his turn to throw, not 30 seconds from the time the group finishes teeing off.

811.F.5. Missed Hole Due to Late Arrival or Absence. If a player is not present to
throw when they are next in the throwing order, and remains absent for at
least 30 seconds, the player does not make any more throws on the hole.
The player's score for the hole is par plus four.

 

[brutalbrutus]

It's 30 seconds for his turn to throw, not 30 seconds from the time the group finishes teeing off.

811.F.5. Missed Hole Due to Late Arrival or Absence. If a player is not present to
throw when they are next in the throwing order, and remains absent for at
least 30 seconds, the player does not make any more throws on the hole.
The player's score for the hole is par plus four.

That rule quoted seems to reinforce my opinion, thanks...

 

[JC17393]

That rule quoted seems to reinforce my opinion, thanks...

Your opinion is that the player should be allowed to throw without penalty, correct?

By rule, if he is second in the teeing order, and his 30 seconds expire and the third player then takes his turn and throws, that's it for that hole. He missed his turn and he doesn't get a new 30 seconds just because he happens to walk up before the group departs the tee or even finishes teeing off.

Of course, lots of players and lots of groups will take liberty with the rule and let the player jump in and throw out of order as long as he gets to the tee before they depart it. But they are definitely bending if not breaking the rules in doing so.

 

[brutalbrutus]

Your opinion is that the player should be allowed to throw without penalty, correct?

By rule, if he is second in the teeing order, and his 30 seconds expire and the third player then takes his turn and throws, that's it for that hole. He missed his turn and he doesn't get a new 30 seconds just because he happens to walk up before the group departs the tee or even finishes teeing off.

Of course, lots of players and lots of groups will take liberty with the rule and let the player jump in and throw out of order as long as he gets to the tee before they depart it. But they are definitely bending if not breaking the rules in doing so.

Show me where it says that in the rule book and I will buy it...

At worst, after reading thru the rules for the second time, all I can see is him being given a courtesy violation for throwing out of order IF he is able to make his throw before 30sec is up. The rule book says "present" but doesn't define what present means(which is why I said if he is able to walk up and throw before 30sec has passed, he should not be given a par+4) and competition manual says once the group has finished teeing but doesn't elaborate on when exactly that happens...

 

[JoakimBL]

Show me where it says that in the rule book and I will buy it...

Krupica quoted the exact rulle that says you are wrong. That is where it says it. Try reading it again. And the again. Repeat until you understand

 

[brutalbrutus]

Krupica quoted the exact rulle that says you are wrong. That is where it says it. Try reading it again. And the again. Repeat until you understand

What part of this...

It's 30 seconds for his turn to throw, not 30 seconds from the time the group finishes teeing off.

811.F.5. Missed Hole Due to Late Arrival or Absence. If a player is not present to
throw when they are next in the throwing order, and remains absent for at
least 30 seconds, the player does not make any more throws on the hole.
The player's score for the hole is par plus four.

Is different than what I said here?...

If he was close enough to walk up and throw before another 30sec was counted,

Like I said above, at worst its a courtesy violation for throwing out of order. Now if he was unable to make a throw in the 30sec allotted, then he gets par+4... The rule book does not say you must be standing on the teepad, it just says present and defers to the 30sec rule.

 

[krupicka]

But the consequence is not a courtesy warning. It is "the player does not make any more throws on the hole.
The player's score for the hole is par plus four."

 

[brutalbrutus]

But the consequence is not a courtesy warning. It is "the player does not make any more throws on the hole.
The player's score for the hole is par plus four."

Yes... AFTER 30sec has passed... This is just another example of two different rules conflicting with each other. There either should not be the rule you quoted in the rule book, or the rule in the competition manual needs to be changed to reflect what it says in the rule book. The finished teeing part of the rule in the competition manual is the hang up here.

 

[brutalbrutus]

If the competition manual said you were absent once your time to throw has passed, I wouldn't have an argument but all it says is "completed holes or holes where the group has finished teeing off." It doesn't say anything about teeing order. SO which rule are we supposed to take first?

 

[Future_Primitive]

Yes... AFTER 30sec has passed... This is just another example of two different rules conflicting with each other. There either should not be the rule you quoted in the rule book, or the rule in the competition manual needs to be changed to reflect what it says in the rule book. The finished teeing part of the rule in the competition manual is the hang up here.

No, this is you conflicting two rules that dont belong together. The rule krupicka quoted is the rule for this specific situation because that is what they named the rule. :\

811.F.5. Missed Hole Due to Late Arrival or Absence.

Dragging the teeing out of order rule into this argument just adds dirt to some crystal clear water. They can't tee out of order because rule 811.F.5 already declared the hole over for the late person once they missed their turn, they are done par + four.

 

[brutalbrutus]

Then they need to change the competition manual to reflect that. Otherwise, the "finished teeing off" part leaves it open to interpretation. When I read that part, it makes me think one can still teeoff regardless off teeing order.

 

[notroman]

Then they need to change the competition manual to reflect that. Otherwise, the "finished teeing off" part leaves it open to interpretation. When I read that part, it makes me think one can still teeoff regardless off teeing order.

If a player is not present to
throw when they are next in the throwing order, and remains absent for at
least 30 seconds

I'm not sure how that's confusing for you. This rule specifically states to take the throwing order into account, and start the 30 second timer. You're trying to bring in another rule saying that in some cases players can throw out of order and get called for a courtesy...this is not the case since it explicitly states that the player has to be present when it's their turn. If they're not present, you count the 30 seconds and that is done. The rule then says that they cannot make any throws on that hole after 30 seconds is up. There is nothing left for interpretation. This is exactly the rule McCray was trying to call on McBeth at the Memorial a couple years back when he was counting out to 30 out loud while McBeth ran off to the bathroom.

 

[brutalbrutus]

I'm not sure how that's confusing for you. This rule specifically states to take the throwing order into account, and start the 30 second timer. You're trying to bring in another rule saying that in some cases players can throw out of order and get called for a courtesy...this is not the case since it explicitly states that the player has to be present when it's their turn. If they're not present, you count the 30 seconds and that is done. The rule then says that they cannot make any throws on that hole after 30 seconds is up. There is nothing left for interpretation. This is exactly the rule McCray was trying to call on McBeth at the Memorial a couple years back when he was counting out to 30 out loud while McBeth ran off to the bathroom.

Because this rule from the competition manual doesnt say that...

Late-arriving players, for either Shotgun or Tee Time rounds, are responsible for checking with the TD, Tournament Central, or the Tee Time Starter to learn their correct starting group and are solely responsible for starting play with that playing group or the group created by the TD due to the player's absence. The player will receive the par plus four score for each hole that the playing group has either completed or finished teeing on. Playing with any other group constitutes an attempt to gain a competitive advantage and is a disqualification.

It says "finished teeing on". It does not say anything about teeing order. If they want to take out the part about finished teeing or put in "See rulebook for rules about teeing order" then fine.

Like I said above, which rule are we supposed to take first?

 

[brutalbrutus]

Another thing, if this situation was brought up during an event I was in, I probably wouldn't look at the rulebook. I would assume that rule would be in the competition manual. Then I would find what I posted above and since it says nothing about teeing order(nor does it refer me to the correct rule in the RB) I would assume the player can tee off... Given that he was able to throw within 30sec from when the last player exited the teeing area.

Whatever the correct interpretation of the rule is, it needs to be clarified in the part of the book that is "wrong".

 

[Dcinmd]

This situation came up earlier in the year. My foursome got stuck on the furthest hole on a 36 hole course. I grabbed the card as soon as it was post and made the long 2 mile journey.

On my way I stumbled across another member of our card along the way. We heard the two minute call and we still about 1/2 hole away from our assigned tee pad.

When we arrive another member of our card was sitting there alone, worried and waiting for us. We took the long way I guess. But another member of our card was missing.

You ever notice how the top card never starts the furthest away?

Shortly upon our arrival the start signal was given. I asked the other members of the card if they had any issue giving the 4th the another minute or so to arrive. We all agree to my suggestion. And low and behold he showed up in a frantic state.

It is amazing how much Sportsmanship and Courtesy can go into the implementation of rules. I have never seen anyone penalized for displaying those two qualities.

And of course no two situations are the same. It is amazing how far a minute patience can take you.