Multi moving obstacle

[cheesethin]

So if a large limb or small tree falls into the basket while you are in the process of putting, you are not allowed to move it until a disc lands where a stance is affected? Then how far do you move it?
Seems fairness would dictate that if the players that holed out before you had clear path to the basket, your group should have the same.

If a branch is actually in the basket then you can remove it at any point. Whether it was there at the start of the round or fell in part way through - it doesn't matter. Todd's post #4 addresses this as well.

803.01 Moving Obstacles
B. A player is not allowed to move any obstacle on the course, with the following exceptions:
...
3. A player may restore course equipment to its proper working order, including the removal of obstacles.

For stuff that happens on the fairway, I don't think the rules have any provisions for major course changes happening mid round (large tree limb falling etc) outside of contacting the TD and getting a ruling. If the change significantly affects how a hole is played, then I would agree with the fairness approach, but that should be done by the TD not the card.

 

[Jimb]

This made me think of the end of Happy Gilmore when the camera tower falls onto the green. "Play it as it lies."

 

[bnrstnkr]

I'm a big fan of play it as it lies, because I watched Happy Gilmore a lot and I like to go into the woods with a "zero impact" mentality. I want to play my game and leave the course exactly as it was, without a trace.

 

[ThrowaEnvy]

So if you throw a drive and it ends up under a large dead branch you can drag that branch to the backside of the basket to act as a backstop? Or you could even drag it to be in front of the basket to block other players putts? Or you could place it in front of another player's lie?

Well veering off topic like usual.. Haha. Reminds me of one of the first years with the disc golf tourney at my place.. We played 9 twice I believe, it was 10yrs ago and I made 40 litres of margaritas so it's hazy.. Standing rule on my place is "you can break and move branches before your shot". Or pushover trees, pull or hack as much broom as you want... It's a throwback to when I first built the course and I will probably limit it for the tourney whenever that is.. Won't be next month..

So this guy Craig, opens up a tunnel through a downed tree by smashing branches, after we tee off he stands them up over the hole he made wondering if the next group will think to remove them haha. After the 3rd time I had to tell him that's not how I wanted the rule interpreted. Damn we were drunk and it was funny. Long live the Margarita Doubles!

 

[Horsman]

The proper interpretation of this rule gives the player the right to remove an obstacle from the basket or the tee pad at any time. If a stick falls into the basket, you are allowed to remove it to restore the basket to its proper working order.
The ground in the middle of the fairway is not course equipment, so you can't restore it to "proper working order".

Is this true about the teepad and how far does that rule go. As a very tall person I often run into issues where there are trees over the teepad that hang down so far that i have to crouch to throw off of the tee. Am I allowed to move this interference. I also have the same question for trees and shrubs around the teepad that are safety hazards for peoples follow thru. Am I allowed to move those things.

I always assumed it was part of the course and I could not touch it, but would love to have the same equal opportunity as a shorter person for safety on the teepad.

 

[krupicka]

The obstacles must be on the playing surface.

 

[araytx]

Is this true about the teepad and how far does that rule go. As a very tall person I often run into issues where there are trees over the teepad that hang down so far that i have to crouch to throw off of the tee. Am I allowed to move this interference. I also have the same question for trees and shrubs around the teepad that are safety hazards for peoples follow thru. Am I allowed to move those things.

I always assumed it was part of the course and I could not touch it, but would love to have the same equal opportunity as a shorter person for safety on the teepad.

I am a tall person as well. Unfortunately the rules do not allow that. Key thing again in any rule book of any sport is the definitions. You can restore course equipment to its proper working order; that is why baskets, tee pads, mando poles, etc. are included. It is NOT intended to "make things easier" or " extrapolate beyond the rule." Those branches hanging down low near the tee pad are course obstacles, just like the branch hanging down low 20' ft from the basket. You'd go to knee or squat below that one to attempt your putt, wouldn't you? There is no difference (and no accommodations for 'tallness") with the branches hanging low near a tee pad.

 

[BillFleming]

Is this true about the teepad and how far does that rule go. As a very tall person I often run into issues where there are trees over the teepad that hang down so far that i have to crouch to throw off of the tee. Am I allowed to move this interference. I also have the same question for trees and shrubs around the teepad that are safety hazards for peoples follow thru. Am I allowed to move those things.

I always assumed it was part of the course and I could not touch it, but would love to have the same equal opportunity as a shorter person for safety on the teepad.

an earlier post had this, but here is 803.01 B

A player is not allowed to move any obstacle on the course, with the following exceptions:
A player may move casual obstacles that are on or behind the lie partially or completely on the lie or in the stance area, regardless of whether they extend in front of or behind the lie. A casual obstacle is any item or collection of loose debris (such as stones, leaves, twigs, or unconnected branches), or any item as designated by the Director.

So you aren't allowed to move any obstacle UNLESS it is a casual obstacle. This is similar to ball golfs 'loose impediment' rule. Simplified, if it isn't attached, you can move it. As another tall player, there sure are times when I wish I could move tree branches overhanging a tee box or elsewhere. I have a friend who is shorter and wishes he could remove bushes that I can throw over but he can't.

 

[Horsman]

Im not really saying that I should be able to move things but I think the PDGA needs to set teepad standards that PDGA events must follow. Low trees overhanging the tee or bushes infringing on the swing off the tee give an unfair advantage to the shorter crowd. Once off the tee I feel like the rules are fine as the player was not forced to throw their disc into a "bad" lie but when that bad lie is forced on the teepad and only affects tall people I feel like something should be done, especially when its as easy as grooming a teepad.

 

[BillFleming]

Im not really saying that I should be able to move things but I think the PDGA needs to set teepad standards that PDGA events must follow. Low trees overhanging the tee or bushes infringing on the swing off the tee give an unfair advantage to the shorter crowd. Once off the tee I feel like the rules are fine as the player was not forced to throw their disc into a "bad" lie but when that bad lie is forced on the teepad and only affects tall people I feel like something should be done, especially when its as easy as grooming a teepad.

I agree that there should be requirements for sizes of tee pads and clear paths from the tee pad. I've seen really short tee pads, tee pads with stuff at the end of it that can be tripped over, tee pads with tree branches overhanging them (one tee pad I saw had tree branches that affected everyone taller than 4 foot).

 

[araytx]

Im not really saying that I should be able to move things but I think the PDGA needs to set teepad standards that PDGA events must follow. Low trees overhanging the tee or bushes infringing on the swing off the tee give an unfair advantage to the shorter crowd. Once off the tee I feel like the rules are fine as the player was not forced to throw their disc into a "bad" lie but when that bad lie is forced on the teepad and only affects tall people I feel like something should be done, especially when its as easy as grooming a teepad.

I agree that there should be requirements for sizes of tee pads and clear paths from the tee pad. I've seen really short tee pads, tee pads with stuff at the end of it that can be tripped over, tee pads with tree branches overhanging them (one tee pad I saw had tree branches that affected everyone taller than 4 foot).

Well guys, I am going to disagree with any "tee pad specific" regulations regarding amount of space or clearing of obstacles etc. And I am 6'5, 275 lbs., so I know what it's like being a big guy in small spaces. I will add one caveat -- I strongly advocate for a TD/designer "tournament guidelines" to advise them how to handle a multitude of tourney issues. Get the best TDs together and have them devise a non-binding but publicized TD guidelines handbook.


But to solely say, "tee pads should have certain clearances" bugs me. For two reasons: 1- why is it specific to tee pads and not applicable at other parts of the course? We currently have plenty of courses with obstacles near the tee pad, in the circle, in the landing zone, etc. Why no clearances there when you get some at the tee pad? I like rules that are consistent. 2-if you have certain tee pad clearances required, what constitutes a "fair" clearance versus a true design obstacle? I mean, one could argue that the 4' one that Bill talked about might be "fairer" (it affects everybody at the adult level) than some of the ones I see where the clearance is 5'8 or 6' which only affects us tall guys. And how far off the tee pad must such clearance be? I understand and deal with it because of my long arms when the tee sign or tree is just to the right of the front of the tee box. I hate that, and there's a tee pad like that on one of my favorite local courses. And when I line up in an event and players who do not know me are in the group I have to explain that I am only taking my last step and release at the very back of the box so I don't follow through into that big tree and hurt myself (like I used to). It looks so strange to them when I start my walk up so far back behind the tee box. But we adjust. If there were such regs, I'd find it difficult to both define that line AND enforce it with TDs without some overarching guideline book to back you up.


So I'd just not be in favor of the "tee pad specific" regs from PDGA unless it was part of a holistic approach to TD'ing.

 

[Horsman]

1- why is it specific to tee pads and not applicable at other parts of the course? We currently have plenty of courses with obstacles near the tee pad, in the circle, in the landing zone, etc. Why no clearances there when you get some at the tee pad? I like rules that are consistent.

2-if you have certain tee pad clearances required, what constitutes a "fair" clearance versus a true design obstacle? I mean, one could argue that the 4' one that Bill talked about might be "fairer" (it affects everybody at the adult level) than some of the ones I see where the clearance is 5'8 or 6' which only affects us tall guys. And how far off the tee pad must such clearance be? I understand and deal with it because of my long arms when the tee sign or tree is just to the right of the front of the tee box. I hate that, and there's a tee pad like that on one of my favorite local courses. And when I line up in an event and players who do not know me are in the group I have to explain that I am only taking my last step and release at the very back of the box so I don't follow through into that big tree and hurt myself (like I used to). It looks so strange to them when I start my walk up so far back behind the tee box. But we adjust. If there were such regs, I'd find it difficult to both define that line AND enforce it with TDs without some overarching guideline book to back you up.


So I'd just not be in favor of the "tee pad specific" regs from PDGA unless it was part of a holistic approach to TD'ing.

1 - Why Teepads and not other parts of the course. There are 2 parts of the course that players are forced to interact with. The basket and the teepad. Everything that happens between there was a choice by the player. It makes no sense to me that we have regulations for only 1 of the 2 things that all players have to interact with during a round.
Yes I understand that nobody is forcing me to play disc golf and that if I dont like it then I can quit but 99% of the time things are fine.

2 - I would leave it up to the PDGA to determine what is fair and unfair. But it might be that there is also no good way to judge what is fair and what isnt. This would also probably mean that there would be a lot of courses that can no longer be used for PDGA events unless they meet the new guidelines.

Also, what is a holistic approach to TD'ing?

 

[araytx]

1 - Why Teepads and not other parts of the course. There are 2 parts of the course that players are forced to interact with. The basket and the teepad. Everything that happens between there was a choice by the player. It makes no sense to me that we have regulations for only 1 of the 2 things that all players have to interact with during a round.
Yes I understand that nobody is forcing me to play disc golf and that if I dont like it then I can quit but 99% of the time things are fine.

2 - I would leave it up to the PDGA to determine what is fair and unfair. But it might be that there is also no good way to judge what is fair and what isnt. This would also probably mean that there would be a lot of courses that can no longer be used for PDGA events unless they meet the new guidelines.

Also, what is a holistic approach to TD'ing?

OK Horsman, #1 --

RED part -- I am confused, and maybe it's by what you are saying. Or possibly you are adding in something that isn't universally understood. Or maybe I am mixing up what you said with what Bill said.

My entire reasoning for disagreeing with you guys is that you both want to [and correct me if I misunderstood] "REQUIRE" (by PDGA regulation) a certain amount of "no obstacles near" the tee box, (such as, branches can't hang down more than a certain height, no closer than a certain number of inches left and right of a tee pad for similar obstacles, the low branches have to be a certain number of feet (inches maybe?) away from the tee box to be legal, etc.), but there ISN'T (currently) anything similar to that for baskets. Baskets can be in water, elevated to who-knows-what height, having trees on one side, surrounded with wooden or man-made "mozzerella sticks, right next to a cliff, or OB line, of wall or fence, etc., all within the circle. We DON'T have it where one set of rules applies to tee boxes and a different one to baskets.

The current rule is you can restore course equipment (both baskets and tee boxes) to their original working order -- which means if a tree limb falls in the basket you can remove it -- at any time. And similarly, if a limb falls on the tee box, you can remove it -- at any time. That's course equipment. [At least that's what I see in this rule.] And similarly, if a tree limb is hanging low by/near the basket (but still part of the actual tree and not "in" the basket) you can't move it. And if a tree limb is hanging low by/near the tee box (but still part of the actual tree and not "on" the tee) you can't move it. Same rule. Same actions both times. It seems to me that you're arguing that I'm advocating for different rules for the tee box and the basket or that we have that now. I don't advocate that way and I don't see the rules as saying that. My argument is I DON'T agree with having a certain amount "no obstacles near" tee boxes when the same isn't applicable to baskets.

GREEN part -- (I get that question) As far as a holistic approach to TD'ing, if the PDGA is going to make "regulations" or "suggestions" to TD's about the details of running their events correctly, the the approach needs not to be "piece-meal". Imho, it should be holistic, meaning not taken in parts but addressing the whole thing, the entire set of actions it takes to be a good TD. Give TD's guidelines about everything to run the tournament correctly -- a manual if you will (non-binding but with the full authority of PDGA) -- and include all the issues -- marking out-of bounds areas properly, suggestions for amount of water to have on the course, how and when to use spotters based upon hole design, how to handle colonies of insects, proper mandos, preparation the day before and morning of, items to go over at players' meetings -- all the things that the BEST TD's do.

fyi, the PDGA has resisted that so far and I certainly understand why. The volunteer TD is our life blood, so making their lives more difficult is risky to the whole organization. Now I get that making sure the courses are properly maintained is part of what they should make sure is done. I didn't get any indication in your earlier posts that those low branches were in any way "accidental" or "newly occurring" due to weather or something like that. SO absent a special situation, I am against trimming near baskets until there might be equal requirement to trim near baskets and get them at specific height clear.

That's just me.

 

[BillFleming]

My opinion about tee pads, is that 'standing on the tee pad, I should have a clear line of sight to the fairway'. I shouldn't have to duck down to see the fairway, then stand up and make my throw blind. I shouldn't have to walk in front of the tee pad to see the 'flight line' because I can't see it from the tee pad.

So, when I step on the tee pad to plan my shot and then make it, I should be able to clearly see the possible flight paths. It doesn't have to be a full sight path to the basket. Just let me see where my throw is heading. And yes, I've played a course with an overgrown tee pad, where you had to duck or step in front of the tee pad to get an idea of where to throw, but the actual throw was pretty much blind.

 

[Horsman]

OK Horsman, #1 --

RED part -- I am confused, and maybe it's by what you are saying. Or possibly you are adding in something that isn't universally understood. Or maybe I am mixing up what you said with what Bill said.

My entire reasoning for disagreeing with you guys is that you both want to [and correct me if I misunderstood] "REQUIRE" (by PDGA regulation) a certain amount of "no obstacles near" the tee box, (such as, branches can't hang down more than a certain height, no closer than a certain number of inches left and right of a tee pad for similar obstacles, the low branches have to be a certain number of feet (inches maybe?) away from the tee box to be legal, etc.), but there ISN'T (currently) anything similar to that for baskets. Baskets can be in water, elevated to who-knows-what height, having trees on one side, surrounded with wooden or man-made "mozzerella sticks, right next to a cliff, or OB line, of wall or fence, etc., all within the circle. We DON'T have it where one set of rules applies to tee boxes and a different one to baskets.

The current rule is you can restore course equipment (both baskets and tee boxes) to their original working order -- which means if a tree limb falls in the basket you can remove it -- at any time. And similarly, if a limb falls on the tee box, you can remove it -- at any time. That's course equipment. [At least that's what I see in this rule.] And similarly, if a tree limb is hanging low by/near the basket (but still part of the actual tree and not "in" the basket) you can't move it. And if a tree limb is hanging low by/near the tee box (but still part of the actual tree and not "on" the tee) you can't move it. Same rule. Same actions both times. It seems to me that you're arguing that I'm advocating for different rules for the tee box and the basket or that we have that now. I don't advocate that way and I don't see the rules as saying that. My argument is I DON'T agree with having a certain amount "no obstacles near" tee boxes when the same isn't applicable to baskets.

GREEN part -- (I get that question) As far as a holistic approach to TD'ing, if the PDGA is going to make "regulations" or "suggestions" to TD's about the details of running their events correctly, the the approach needs not to be "piece-meal". Imho, it should be holistic, meaning not taken in parts but addressing the whole thing, the entire set of actions it takes to be a good TD. Give TD's guidelines about everything to run the tournament correctly -- a manual if you will (non-binding but with the full authority of PDGA) -- and include all the issues -- marking out-of bounds areas properly, suggestions for amount of water to have on the course, how and when to use spotters based upon hole design, how to handle colonies of insects, proper mandos, preparation the day before and morning of, items to go over at players' meetings -- all the things that the BEST TD's do.

fyi, the PDGA has resisted that so far and I certainly understand why. The volunteer TD is our life blood, so making their lives more difficult is risky to the whole organization. Now I get that making sure the courses are properly maintained is part of what they should make sure is done. I didn't get any indication in your earlier posts that those low branches were in any way "accidental" or "newly occurring" due to weather or something like that. SO absent a special situation, I am against trimming near baskets until there might be equal requirement to trim near baskets and get them at specific height clear.

That's just me.

Good Points, I can see how my last post was a bit confusing. What I was trying to get at was that there are technical standards for baskets but not for teepads. And then I just lumped in the surrounding area of a teepad in there but not the surrounding of the basket.

Idk, i feel like i side on the side of safety. An untrimmed green isnt going to cause much physical harm that a player cant avoid, while an untrimmed tee area could cause harm to a player and the only way to avoid it is by skipping or misplaying the hole. I know this is a non issue 99.9% of the time but its fun to talk about.

 

[jessica_ashford]

So if a large limb or small tree falls into the basket while you are in the process of putting, you are not allowed to move it until a disc lands where a stance is affected? Then how far do you move it?
Seems fairness would dictate that if the players that holed out before you had clear path to the basket, your group should have the same.

Good question BTW

 

[Cgkdisc]

803.01 B.3 A player may restore course equipment to its proper working order including removal of obstacles.

 

[Casey 1988]

My opinion about tee pads, is that 'standing on the tee pad, I should have a clear line of sight to the fairway'. I shouldn't have to duck down to see the fairway, then stand up and make my throw blind. I shouldn't have to walk in front of the tee pad to see the 'flight line' because I can't see it from the tee pad.

So, when I step on the tee pad to plan my shot and then make it, I should be able to clearly see the possible flight paths. It doesn't have to be a full sight path to the basket. Just let me see where my throw is heading. And yes, I've played a course with an overgrown tee pad, where you had to duck or step in front of the tee pad to get an idea of where to throw, but the actual throw was pretty much blind.

There are times one will throw blind tee shots due to how the trees and woods are, but to have an obstructed drive is wrong.

Before Powerhouse Ally in Oahe Downstream State Park/State Rec area had Concrete tee they had this one hole before a Steady Ed, not PDGA sanctioned due to name and that Steady can only be used at the Steady Memorial as of mid 2000's, but uses current PDGA rules for tournaments other then prize stuff, they had a tee pad one year on a new alternate tee spot that had a dead tree right and back end of tee pad and only person who could throw on the pad was well nobody because the spot to tee off was if Dead tree 1.5 inch diameter was not there max was somebody about 5 foot 9 inches to 6 foot depending on leg length and run up style could do a shorter run up but due to tree nobody could throw off the pad with a run up/X step who was over 4 foot 6 inches so only a girl who was 9 years old could do a run up as everyone else was too tall including a kid who was younger then the girl. That tree was gone soon after 2007 Steady Ed Memorial by my dad and I as well as then the summer workers mowing up the 1 foot stump to 1 inch tall. The pad when Concrete did get made bigger in front and the back was made fully safe without a ~1 inch stump left from mowing over a 1 foot stump of the 1.5 inch diameter tree.

 

[zenbot]

This is similar to ball golfs 'loose impediment' rule. Simplified, if it isn't attached, you can move it.

Which has shown to be ridiculous.

 

[BillFleming]

Which has shown to be ridiculous.

That was nuts. The rule should be that the player has to be able to move the object without assistance.

There was one ball golf tournament where Phil Mickelson (I think it was him) played a shot from a parking lot. What if his ball had been under a car? He would have been able to get a whole bunch of people to lift and move the car.....that's not the way it should be. If the player can't move the object by themselves, it is immovable.