No 10 Meter Circle

[bradharris]

So you are saying a foot fault has never happened inside the circle? and players call it every single time? no confusion across masses of players or courses etc? ....... come on'

Foot faults happen, and oftentimes go uncalled. But the 10m circle is easily enforced. It's not exact down to the centimeter, but at least you can always get a group consensus.

Determining if a lie is "in or out" is easier than policing falling/jump putts.

 

[bradharris]

Fix it, one way or another. Either embrace it for every shot (no falling, except tee shots), or remove all together.

Bad putters will still be bad putters. The advantage goes to those who can drive well, and lay up well.

I'm still not convinced there's anything broken that needs fixing.

 

[jedeye]

I'm still not convinced there's anything broken that needs fixing.

maybe not broken, but it is confusing, and rules simplification in this situation does make sense
I agree that the worst part is the measurement of the circle itself.
Strike one more vote for the change - excellent idea!

 

[bradharris]

maybe not broken, but it is confusing, and rules simplification in this situation does make sense
I agree that the worst part is the measurement of the circle itself.
Strike one more vote for the change - excellent idea!

This is advocating for way more than just a simplification of the rules. Eliminating the circle would mean major changes for how the game is played. It either opens up the opportunity to perform falling or jump putts at close range or it prevents any sort of follow through on any shot not on the tee.

Is it really so hard to simply ask "am I out?"

 

[Thumber]

I thought about this last night.

I like Chucks idea about course designers being able to alter the shape of the circle, and, in the absence of a clearly delineated "green" the 10M circle is the deflault

 

[IHearChains]

I thought about this last night.

I like Chucks idea about course designers being able to alter the shape of the circle, and, in the absence of a clearly delineated "green" the 10M circle is the deflault

One good thing about this is that it would not affect rules of casual play or 90+% of tournament play. The default is the same as always, eliminating confusion.

On the other hand, eliminating the circle would cause chaos in casual rounds and league rounds and even some tournaments, because there would be lots of players who are not necessarily following all the details of rules changes. And then lots of arguing....

Maybe the arguments would subside after awhile. But I guess I'm in the camp of "not broke don't fix it"

 

[bradharris]

One good thing about this is that it would not affect rules of casual play or 90+% of tournament play. The default is the same as always, eliminating confusion.

On the other hand, eliminating the circle would cause chaos in casual rounds and league rounds and even some tournaments, because there would be lots of players who are not necessarily following all the details of rules changes. And then lots of arguing....

Maybe the arguments would subside after awhile. But I guess I'm in the camp of "not broke don't fix it"

This can be covered in the players meeting before a tourney so that everyone's on the same page.

I can see it causing issues in casual and league play though. Someone plays in a tourney with the green marked, but long after the "green" disappears, he'll insist to his buddies that "this isn't part of the green, I can jump putt from here."

 

[Thumber]

This can be covered in the players meeting before a tourney so that everyone's on the same page.

I can see it causing issues in casual and league play though. Someone plays in a tourney with the green marked, but long after the "green" disappears, he'll insist to his buddies that "this isn't part of the green, I can jump putt from here."

I was thinking along the lines of permanently delineated greens, such as brick pavers set in the ground or any other permanent line

Flags and spray paint are fine for a tourny but have no longevity

It would be interesting if the RC allowed this as a pilot / experiment that TDs could use for a year or 2 to see how it works versus the standard decameter circle

 

[bradharris]

I was thinking along the lines of permanently delineated greens, such as brick pavers set in the ground or any other permanent line

Flags and spray paint are fine for a tourny but have no longevity

It would be interesting if the RC allowed this as a pilot / experiment that TDs could use for a year or 2 to see how it works versus the standard decameter circle

Permanent marking would be nice, but I doubt it would be used much at all. You most likely would see it mostly done with spray paint for tourneys only.

 

[Thumber]

Permanent marking would be nice, but I doubt it would be used much at all. You most likely would see it mostly done with spray paint for tourneys only.

On existing courses, you are likely right. For new courses though, it could be an interesting addition.

All depends on the operations and maintenance budget really.

I would like to see it experimented with in tournaments. Would the PDGA allow you to waive the 10M circle in favor of a marked, shaped green for a tournament or would this result in losing sanctioning.

No reason at all it couldn't be tried in an unsanctioned tournament.

 

[Cgkdisc]

I think the challenge is how do you mark a line permanently? Seems like one way would be the rubber garden border material. It might seem expensive. But it wouldn't raise the cost per building a hole by too much and be permanent. Another way I've seen it done is using Roundup to burn a 4" line through the grass. But that would likely require some maintenance.

 

[Aim For The Chains]

from a landscaping standpoint I would say there are endless ways and not have to pay for any of the material.

 

[Thumber]

I think the challenge is how do you mark a line permanently? Seems like one way would be the rubber garden border material. It might seem expensive. But it wouldn't raise the cost per building a hole by too much and be permanent. Another way I've seen it done is using Roundup to burn a 4" line through the grass. But that would likely require some maintenance.

paver stones buried flush with the surface would work

Hell even wooden 2x4s could be used. They would last a while at least

This is an interesting idea. Lets not let the materials used be the barrier.

Rubber garden border would work quite well

For tournaments, flags, rope or paint could be used

 

[CrowLegs]

On existing courses, you are likely right. For new courses though, it could be an interesting addition.

All depends on the operations and maintenance budget really.

I would like to see it experimented with in tournaments. Would the PDGA allow you to waive the 10M circle in favor of a marked, shaped green for a tournament or would this result in losing sanctioning.

No reason at all it couldn't be tried in an unsanctioned tournament.

I really, really, like this idea! The equivalent of "greens" where putting rules apply.

I guess it would be challenging on holes with multiple pin locations. Either they would be far enough apart to have separate greens, or the greens would be delineated uniquely enough to prevent confusion. Or, there would be one green encompassing both, like in ball golf.

Interesting ideas for sure. I'd love to see it on a new course.

 

[Cgkdisc]

If we have the option to make the green not circular, we could also use more straight edge border elements like 2x4s to create a more geometric pattern like a hexagon, square or plus sign. Personally, I would prefer a more rounded meandering border for aesthetic reasons but the 2x4s would be less expensive than the rubber border material.

This is something I plan to talk about with the PDGA Course Committee at the Conference in May.

 

[Thumber]

If we have the option to make the green not circular, we could also use more straight edge border elements like 2x4s to create a more geometric pattern like a hexagon, square or plus sign.

This is something I plan to talk about with the PDGA Course Committee at the Conference in May.

One of the best ideas I have heard in a while for improving DG.

It will be interesting to see what comes of the discussion.

I can already hear the complaints...."I can't putt from 60 feet away. I have to be able to step through"

 

[Cgkdisc]

As I mentioned before, my thought would be that the distance could only vary between a min and max value of something like 7m to 15m (22 ft to 48ft) so we keep the putting parameters roughly the same. Unlike BG, players would want a smaller green versus a bigger green!

My thought would be that ideally the perimeter length for these new greens would not range too widely. Think of a circular rubberband 20m in diameter (63m around) as our current perimeter. Let's say your green perimeter length could only get down to say 50m or up to 85m.

 

[Thumber]

Agreed that limits are needed. Otherwise it will become very gimmicky

 

[Aim For The Chains]

This might be one of the better discussions to come out of this place in a while.

Nice job everyone and thank you Chuck for being so proactive here.

Maybe OP should add a poll...?! (thread tools FYI)

 

[JC17393]

As I mentioned before, my thought would be that the distance could only vary between a min and max value of something like 7m to 15m (22 ft to 48ft) so we keep the putting parameters roughly the same. Unlike BG, players would want a smaller green versus a bigger green!

My thought would be that ideally the perimeter length for these new greens would not range too widely. Think of a circular rubberband 20m in diameter (63m around) as our current perimeter. Let's say your green perimeter length could only get down to say 50m or up to 85m.

How about instead of limiting the measurements based on the pin location (7m away vs 10m away vs 15m, etc), why not a min/max square footage (or meterage)? Right now, every single putting circle is ~314.15 square meters or ~3386.62 square feet in area. Why not make that the baseline for a putting green and allow any shape or dimension for a green so long as the total area it covers equals 300-325 square meters or 3000-3500 square feet.

It could open up the possibilities for some crazy dimensions and interesting designs. How about a 300X11 foot green with the tee at one end and the basket 285 feet away at the other end? The length of the fairway would be an 11 foot wide strip within which only putting rules were allowed. An extreme example, sure, but it just shows that a whole new world of design possibilities could exist.

Of course, this is all just pie in the sky dreaming anyway. I have a feeling that no matter how novel or interesting the concept of variable putting areas may be, the rules committee probably isn't going to be so quick to implement such a change. It's going to take private courses with the freedom, funding and creativity to put such concepts into action before we'll ever see it come to fruition. But then, that really is the future for all course design innovation to come in our sport. We have to break the shackles put on us by building courses on "other" people's land (i.e. parks).